Choy Lay Fut (Tat Mau Wong)

[Pedro]

By the way, I train in the lineage of Tat-Mau Wong (for two years now). I live in Brazil and our sifu is Francisco De Paula, who is a direct disciple of Tat-Mau. In fact, his academy used to be a direct branch of Tat Wong, but now it's independent and called Hung Sing Kung Fu Academy.

I've already read about the main branches of CLF, and I see you commenting on the differences in the forms between one branch or another, but I couldn't identify which branch Tat-Mau Wong's lineage would fit into. Does anyone know?

In my research, I tried to put together our family tree and came up with this:



Any ideas, suggestions or corrections on this?

[hskwarrior]

CHAN YUEN WU S NOT THE GREEN GRASS BRO. YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIX THAT INACURRACY IN THE TREE.

"I've already read about the main branches of CLF, and I see you commenting on the differences in the forms between one branch or another, but I couldn't identify which branch Tat-Mau Wong's lineage would fit into. Does anyone know?
"

YOUR HUNG SING LINEAGE BELONGS TO CHAN KOON PAK, THE SON OF CHAN HEUNG. THE TRUE HUNG SING NAME YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE USING SHOULD NOT BE THE SAME A FUT SAN HUNG SING. TWO DIFFERENT HUNG SING'S. THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION FOR YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE "STRONG VICTORY" (HUNG SING) WHILE MY HUNG SING MEANS GREAT VICTORY. NOT THE SAME CHINESE CHARACTERS.

LOOKING AT YOUR TREE, YOUR LINEAGE SHOULD FOLLOW CHAN KOON PAK STRAIGHT LINE, AND OFF TO THE SIDE IS JEONG YIM. NO DIRECT LINEAGE.

[Pedro]

CHAN YUEN WU S NOT THE GREEN GRASS BRO. YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIX THAT INACURRACY IN THE TREE.

Hmm... When I was researching the genealogy of Choy Lay Fut, I found a PDF of the CLF lineage on the Plum Blossom International Federation website (https://plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/cl...ges_5-5-12.pdf) that stated that the 3 masters who came before Chan Heung were Choy Fook, Li Yau San and Chan Yuen Woo. Since I knew that Choy Fook gave the Choy part of the CLF name and Li Yau San gave the Lay/Li part, I assumed the third name (Chan Yuen Woo) was the Green Grass Monk, which gave the Fut (Buddha) part of the name. But now that you said that, I looked again at the Wikipedia article on CLF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choy_Li_Fut) and discovered that Chan Yuen Woo was a "fourth master", Chan Heung's uncle!

I now searched for "Green Grass Monk's name" and found a Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeong_Yim) that says the Green Grass Monk's name was Ching Cho Wo Sheung (青草和尚). Is this right?

"I've already read about the main branches of CLF, and I see you commenting on the differences in the forms between one branch or another, but I couldn't identify which branch Tat-Mau Wong's lineage would fit into. Does anyone know?"

YOUR HUNG SING LINEAGE BELONGS TO CHAN KOON PAK, THE SON OF CHAN HEUNG. THE TRUE HUNG SING NAME YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE USING SHOULD NOT BE THE SAME A FUT SAN HUNG SING. TWO DIFFERENT HUNG SING'S. THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION FOR YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE "STRONG VICTORY" (HUNG SING) WHILE MY HUNG SING MEANS GREAT VICTORY. NOT THE SAME CHINESE CHARACTERS.

LOOKING AT YOUR TREE, YOUR LINEAGE SHOULD FOLLOW CHAN KOON PAK STRAIGHT LINE, AND OFF TO THE SIDE IS JEONG YIM. NO DIRECT LINEAGE.

So, after another round of research: at the time Chan Heung started teaching CLF, the Qing dynasty took the place of the Ming dynasty in China, and there was a secret society called Hung Mun (洪門) that was against the Qing dynasty and wanted the Ming dynasty to return. Chan Heung and his students wanted this too, so they sided with the Hung Mun Secret Society against the Qing dynasty, then started using Hung Sing (洪勝) as their motto, which means "Hung Society Victory", or "victory for the Hung family". But this kind of attitude was illegal and they had to hide it, so they changed the word Hung (洪) to hung (鴻), which means "goose", so Hung Sing (鴻勝) became "Goose Victory", or "Glorious Victory" or "Great Victory" (is this Fut San branch already?). Then Chan Koon-pak changed it to hung (雄), which means "hero", so Hung Sing (雄勝) became "Heroic Victory" or "Strong Victory". Is it right?

I just found a text written by you telling everything:
https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum...Hung-Sing-name

So, do you think the original name Hung Sing (洪聖 or 洪圣) given by Chan Heung had nothing to do with the Hung Mun secret society against the Qing dynasty?

[hskwarrior]

I assumed the third name (Chan Yuen Woo) was the Green Grass Monk, which gave the Fut (Buddha) part of the name.

Sorry bro. This is incorrect. Chan Yuen Wu was originally said to have taught "HUNG KUEN" to Chan Heung. THAT, has since changed to "Fut Gar" and then changed to "Hung Fut" now. It kind of makes it hard to trust anything coming from the Chan Family lineages of Choy Lee Fut, it changes with the times.

But now that you said that, I looked again at the Wikipedia article on CLF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choy_Li_Fut) and discovered that Chan Yuen Woo was a "fourth master", Chan Heung's uncle!

Chan Heung only learned with Chan Yuen Woo, Lee Yau San, and Choy Fook. He did not learn from any other teachers.

I now searched for "Green Grass Monk's name" and found a Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeong_Yim) that says the Green Grass Monk's name was Ching Cho Wo Sheung (青草和尚). Is this right?

青草 = ching cho (English: Green Grass) 和尚 = Monk. Therefore you get 青草和尚 (Green Grass Monk).

However, if you are part of tat mau wong's choy lee fut, the Green Grass Monk is not your direct ancestor. a great uncle maybe. but he was not chan heung's teacher at all. he was only Cheung Hung Sing's teacher.

Chan Heung and his students wanted this too, so they sided with the Hung Mun Secret Society against the Qing dynasty, then started using Hung Sing (洪勝) as their motto, which means "Hung Society Victory", or "victory for the Hung family". But this kind of attitude was illegal and they had to hide it, so they changed the word Hung (洪) to hung (鴻), which means "goose", so Hung Sing (鴻勝) became "Goose Victory", or "Glorious Victory" or "Great Victory" (is this Fut San branch already?). Then Chan Koon-pak changed it to hung (雄), which means "hero", so Hung Sing (雄勝) became "Heroic Victory" or "Strong Victory". Is it right?

In southern China, about 75% of the men supported the Hung Mun. Some even added the word HUNG to their personal names to show support. So it is possible that Chan Heung's students supported the Hung Mun as well but, "Hung Sing (洪勝)" while yes it was used as slogan by authentic Hung Mun ancestors (not Choy Lee Fut), it was also a name given to Cheung Hung Sing by the Green Grass Monk, who was one of the 5 Hung Mun founders. Yes, the name was illegal to use after the Tai Ping Rebellion.

The "Hung Sing" that belongs to Chan Heung is only THIS ONE: 洪圣 (Hung Sing) which is NOT the same as "Hung Sing (洪勝)" because the definition of each word is not the same. the word SING 圣 means "sage" or Saint. the word 勝 means Victory. therefore 圣 and 勝 does not share the same meaning. two different words.

Hung Sing (洪勝) was only used by Cheung Hung Sing as it was given to him by the Green Grass Monk.

Then Chan Koon-pak changed it to hung (雄), which means "hero", so Hung Sing (雄勝) became "Heroic Victory" or "Strong Victory". Is it right?

Chan Koon Pak may have originally been a student of Cheung Hung Sing, which would explain why his school originally used (鴻勝). I don't believe Koon Pak changed the name. I believe Chan Yiu Chi (koon paks son) changed the name because Fut San Hung Sing(鴻勝) was constantly in the news for its revolutionary activity. SO, someone changed it to Hung Sing (雄勝) meaning Strong Victory.

But this kind of attitude was illegal and they had to hide it, so they changed the word Hung (洪) to hung (鴻), which means "goose", so Hung Sing (鴻勝) became "Goose Victory", or "Glorious Victory" or "Great Victory" (is this Fut San branch already?).

Yes, and NO. The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was wanted by the Qing Empire for their activity in the revolution. So they were constantly being closed down and had to escape being captured and killed by the soldiers. ONLY fut san hung sing used Hung Sing(鴻勝). The original Hung (洪) and the new one of Hung (鴻) are the only two words that can be used as a replacement for the other. Both of them mean Great. I personally believe someone tried to convince others that "Wild Goose" was the true meaning. But it is not. Great Victory Hung Sing(鴻勝) was what Cheung Hung Sing used to avoid further detection by the Qing. It was the new name of his school as he re-opened his Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in 1867.

So, do you think the original name Hung Sing (洪聖 or 洪圣) given by Chan Heung had nothing to do with the Hung Mun secret society against the Qing dynasty?

Yes and no.. He chose to call it "Hung Sing" (洪聖) which translates into "Great Sage" or "Holy" and is also in reference to a southern Chinese Deity Hung Shing (洪聖), also known as Hung Shing Ye (洪聖爺) in addition to Tai Wong (大王). This deity's real name was Hung Hei (洪熙), a righteous government official.

However, Hung Sing meaning Great Sage (洪聖) are also words referring to the Saint of the Hung Mun name "Hung Wu". he was the first Ming Emporer. There is a Hung Mun "Coin" that shares this Hung Sing word on it referring to "Hung Wu". is this why chan heung chose this name? i don't believe so. but I could be wrong.

[CLFNole]

Poon Sing wasn't really Lee Koon Hung's sifu. This is somewhat of a misconception. When Sifu joined Poon Dik's school, he might have already passed away but we have been unable to completely verify this. At the time his school was being run mainly by two of his students. Leung Sai and Chow Bing. Poon Sing, I believe did teach there as well but was more busy handling other business matters. LKH got the bulk of his CLF from Leung Sai and Chow Bing. Not saying he didn't learn from Poon Sing as well but he never called him "sifu" only Sing Gor (Brother Sing). In fact they were Gip Bai Hing Dai (blood brothers). LKH also learned from So Kam Fook (his sisuk and younger classmate of Poon Dik) later on in life (in his 30s) and in the early days also learned some from Leung Siu Kuen (the nephew of Leung Kwai, one of Poon Dik's sifus).

[hskwarrior]

I assumed the third name (Chan Yuen Woo) was the Green Grass Monk, which gave the Fut (Buddha) part of the name.

Chan Yuen Wu never taught Fut Gar. Back when we all started this on the forum back then, Chan Yuen Wu was said to have taught Hung Kuen. Even the current guy from the Lee Iu Lineage, wrote that it was Hung Kuen. Then our brother from New York CLF states it was "Hung Fut" and not Hung Kuen. Not sure if people just don't know, but even Hung Fut puts Chan Yuen Wu in the picture. but Chan Yuen was the normal alias of Choy Dak Jung, the first of the 5 Hung Mun founders.