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Thread: Where are we going ?.....

  1. #16
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    In a somewhat Taoist fashion, my goals are both event AND process oriented. Practice on any level is rewarding in and of itself, but there is also a particular De for my practice of it.

    I'd like to be remembered for having preserved and maybe even expanded the combat viability of Baguazhang and for acting as a liaison between the enthusiastic but unfamiliar average student and the lofty but esoteric aspects of advanced martial arts skill. Basically, I want to empower the good guys.

    RE: "Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa)..". I have trained in a number of things over the years. For the last several years, I've had a stable configuration of Baguazhang, Kali, Taijiquan, and Machado JJ. The JJ is obviously to shore up ground capabilities. For me, the interesting interplay is between Baguazhang and Kali. In my practice, each improves the other.

    Kali brings a great practicality and versatility of real combat applications to the mix. The learning curve is among the shortest in all of the martial arts. The trapping skills are the equal of Wing Chun's, if you're into that. The weapons skill with weapons that reflect real world availability is rivalled only by Kali's sister arts of Silat from next door in Indonesia, IMO. The hand skills are lightning-fast and efficient. The practical usage of various body weapons is top shelf. The lock flows when using controlling lines are invaluable.

    Baguazhang, in complement, brings superior biomechanics, power generation, and flow to the mix, besides its own deviously cruel applications. Baguazhang is a major influence in many Indonesian Kuntao systems, and as a result, some of my applications are often mistaken for Kuntao, which is known for its extreme brutality.

    In the evolutionary cycle of almost any given martial art, there are three distinct phases. There is an evolutionary phase (usually occurring in times of war) when the art is being developed as a combat method. This is when the art is being maximally field-tested.

    Next, there is a plateau phase (usually in peacetime) when the art most evolves and reaches the pinnacle of development in both its techniques and principles. It is during this phase that the art's most skilled and celebrated practitioners arise.

    Finally, there is a degradation or devolution phase (almost always in periods of extended peacetime) when the art is transformed from a coherent collection of combat-tested fighting methods to a martial WAY. It is during this phase that the effective combat methods of the art become obscured by both the passing of time and the institutionalization of the movements as ceremonial expression of the art's philosophical principles. In terms of degradation, the first to go are usually the most combat-oriented and combat-effective methods.

    While not all arts fit this exact mold for one reason or another, the model still generally works for predicting the history of most martial arts.

    Baguazhang is still relatively new and obscure here in the US. Neither it nor Xing Yi Quan have yet been subject to much of the watering down as a combat art that their sister art of Taijiquan has experienced as a whole. Taijiquan, in fact, might represent the quintessential example of an art that finds itself at the very end of the evolutionary cycle, at least in this country. Yet still, even Bagua is no longer regularly field-tested and honed by its practitioners as it once was, such as in the days of the Chinese Imperial Bodyguards. This puts Bagua in, at the very least, the plateau phase, and in all likelihood, it is well into its degradation phase.

    All that said, one of my goals is not to contribute to the entropy of the art. While the art as a whole may be moving inexorably toward degradation, it is still possible to have isolated eddies of development going on. That may be the most I can hope for.

    As for the process side, every day reveals just slightly more insight into my personal De. It also offers a host of health benefits of great value to that facet of me which is a healer.

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by Internal Boxer

    I also practice sitting meditation, I go to a Zen-Buddist retreat in Rochdale. I talk with Rev. Peter who has told me that the practice of internal martial arts are to help polish the self. In Zen they attempt to remove the concept of self, as it is the beginning of conflict and dividing the world. Which is in fact contrary to Zen-buddism and the deeper levels of taoism. I had a lot of trouble accepting this as my ego will not let go as I am quite addicted to the feeling of cultivating the energy in my body, as I understand that such cultivation is just re-affirming the self. But I cling to the belief that Taoist masters used IMA to aid them in becoming connected to the Tao. But I suppose I do not have any answers, just questions.

    Anyone any Ideas!
    Greets Internal Boxer,

    So long as you treat the cultivation of energy simply as energy without becoming addicted to it, then you should be fine.

    Zen removes the labelling of anything, and returns it to its purer state. The practise of Zen should not hinder your practise of natal breathing. It should be okay.

    Have you heard of Zen Master Sheng-Yen ? (not to be confused with the other Sheng Yen he calls himself as Buddha)...

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by Scarletmantis
    I train so that I can kill people with my Taoist Chi skills. However, I can only kill people who are psychic vampires and hungry ghosts since they are endowed with "negative" ie Yin Jing and my Taoist powers of Chi manipulation are Yang. I practice Sperm Fu you see. I've been supplementing that with 'lots of Tongue Fu, whenever my girlfriend's up for it so maybe someday I can kill regular people too. Any how, I used to go for the Light Body Kung (my original goal for training) but the piano wire kept cutting me when I jumped off the roof of my Apartment, and I couldn't find a leather harness that was truly concealable, so I finally gave up on that.
    Thanks Scarlet, that is a classic. Do you accept students ?
    peace

  4. #19
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    Only if you're a girl Prana. By the way, if you didn't notice, I was just joking about killing people. I really train to impress the ladies, which is what Sperm and Tongue Fu are really for. At least thats what the Taoist sage who taught me said, but he was celebate, so what does he know? Anyhow, my training was REALLY awkward since I'm heterosexual and he's a virgin. You don't wanna know how we practiced applications!
    " You must use your Dan Tien, spine, ligaments, tendons, joints, muscles, and chi for power. Your whole body together, not seperate parts. If you don't, you are not practicing Ba Gua Chang, you are practicing Ba Gua Bullsh*t." - Master George Xu

  5. #20
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    Scarlet,

    heheh ummm ok I take your word for it Errr sorry to disappoint, I am definitely a guy

    edit : I think you just blinded my mental screen

    ok, better not screw this great thread up....

  6. #21
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    Where are we going?

    Inner Nature.

  7. #22
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    USA
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    Contradictions

    "Baguazhang is still relatively new and obscure here in the US. Neither it nor Xing Yi Quan have yet been subject to much of the watering down as a combat art that their sister art of Taijiquan has experienced as a whole. Taijiquan, in fact, might represent the quintessential example of an art that finds itself at the very end of the evolutionary cycle, at least in this country."

    Erle Montaigue's Tai Ji is well respresented in the USA so I don't know where this comment about the U.S. comes from since you practice his style. Watering down maybe this means mcdojo which you site in alot of your posts, I was wondering about this maybe you or 1 of your colleague's could help here with something that seems contradictory:
    Taken from Gary Romel's site:
    I believe rank can create an ego driven learning environment, it is also another trade gimmick used to make money for the local Mcdojos'. In case you haven't noticed, more and more belts seem to come from nowhere lately. For this reason in my class, we do not wear rank belts/sashes. Not to mention it was not originally in Taijiquan to begin with.

    However I do have a rank system in place, us westerners need a checklist, a direction to go, and some tangible sense of accomplishment to keep us motivated. For this reason I do have rank requirements outlined, but it's more of a learning tool to let the student know when, and what they should be working on. Rank is also not given out easily. You must be able to use the techniques to a realistic level. Nobody will ever be able to say any of my black sashes cannot defend themselves

    From Erle's site:
    WTBA Member Application Form:
    Please fill out the following items and send your form back to us. Your information will be evaluated and once accepted, a certificated of WTBA Membership will be sent to you. Should you then wish to become a WTBA instructor, the necessary 'testing' will have to be done either in person or by video tape. A one off fee of $US50.00 is charged for the privilege of belonging to the WTBA as an instructor as there are obvious benefits being able to claim as such. The only other payment for becoming a WTBA member is that you have a current "

    "Yet still, even Bagua is no longer regularly field-tested and honed by its practitioners as it once was, such as in the days of the Chinese Imperial Bodyguards. This puts Bagua in, at the very least, the plateau phase, and in all likelihood, it is well into its degradation phase. "

    Perhaps your speaking of the OKlahoma Baguazhang scene as I hear they don't accept challenges out there nor spar they even have a guy claiming to be a TCM Doctor who learned from books, perhaps you should start making change within yourself first then maybe if your fool enough expect others to change as well but I think you much rather hear yourself talk.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
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    www.yichuankungfu.com
    check out soem vids there
    - "Why should the marathon go to the swift? Or the jumble to the quick witted? Because god gave them their GIFTS? Well I say CHEATING is the gift man gives himself!" - Monty Burns

  9. #24
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    Cheers Prana,

    Prana thanks for the info mate. I like the Scarlet Mantis Quote LOL.

    I have been studying IMA for 10years, and only just started ZaZen 2 months ago, I have never heard of Zen Master Sheng-Yen who is he/she?

    So being very new to the subject all I know is that the retreat at Rochdale (Lancs) is part of the Soto tradition of Buddhist contemplatives but what that means I have no idea? I hope I have got it right as it is just from memory, I have some stuff at home so I will check, they also have a web site belonging to the order?

    A friend of mine who I spoke to last night has been a buddhist for many years explained what you have more or less said, is that it is ok to practice energy cultivation, but do not cling to it. But I guess I have been clinging to it. Before I met Rev. Peter I did not have any spiritual path, and cultivating the energy seemed the only thing that was beyond western science, and I wrongly classified the feelings of energy moving as a spiritual experience, when I realise now it is not at all it is a completely different path.

    all the best, Matt.
    Last edited by Internal Boxer; 03-26-2002 at 06:32 AM.

  10. #25
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    MO goal is a simple and direct one: to be the best.

    I know there are lots of guys out there training hard. I don't think I can train harder, so I'm trying to train smarter. Investing in technique.

    Immediately my goal is to start entering some tournaments later this summer/Fall. I've been doing some testing with old classmates. Then my aim is for bigger events, try to get into K1.

    This aim is to show that "traditional martial arts" work, that traditional MA means real martial arts, wich means evolving, upgrading to meet the needs in combat. And surely to stroke my ego as well. WOuld be lying to deny that.

    But this I believe is just the background work to a larger goal. If fortumate enough and considred capable by my teacher, I would like to carry on E-chuan and open a gym.

    To do that, in my eyes, I would need to be capable of accepting any challenge from any man, empty hands, pole or sword.

    That is what's in my mind. That is my goal. My other major goal is simply to finish the book I've been working on for a year and half. That's well on the way. About 6 more months maybe.

    Best to everyone and there dreams. Hard work makes them reality.

    Ray

  11. #26
    Brass Monkey wrote:

    "Erle Montaigue's Tai Ji is well respresented in the USA so I don't know where this comment about the U.S. comes from since you practice his style. "

    Actually, Erle Montaigue's taiji is not well represented in the US. I live in the Northeast and have counted it seems just a dozen Cheng Man Ching style teachers in my area alone.

    Erle's WTBA instructorship is separate from local grading systems. He lets his instructors use what they want. The US WTBA has a ranking system put together as well by Al Krych. But again it is only tool to pick up for those who need it. It's all informal as the learning takes precedent.

    Keith

  12. #27

    why I train

    For what it's worth, my reasons for training are as follows:
    1. To improve my health. All my life I have suffered from asthma and while it has not been eliminated training in the martial arts has certainly given me a better understanding of my body, which has had health benefits.
    2. To help cope with stress. I teach high school for a living and the tools the MA give me do help to keep the stress manageable.
    3. For defence. I think that very few of us would be in the arts if we didn't have some desire to improve our combat effectiveness.
    4. To pass on some understanding of physical/Chinese culture. I'd like to think that by teaching tai chi to urban kids I'm giving them another window on the world, hopefully helping some of them to start at least thinking about different directions/possibilities in life. To my mind, this in itself has something of a spiritual edge to it. Hopefully that didn't sound too patronising, it certainly wasn't meant to be.
    Happy training.

  13. #28
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    brassmonkey (or should I call you ewallace),

    What's the matter, baby girl...havin' a rough day? Or is it just that that pesky IQ/memory problem is kicking in again? No wait, I bet you simply forgot to take your meds. Whatever it is, besides pegging the B.S. meters of everyone with your post, you've also managed to erode your own credibility just that much further.

    RE: "Erle Montaigue's Tai Ji is well respresented in the USA so I don't know where this comment about the U.S. comes from since you practice his style.". Now, I don't like to make fun of those with serious thinking disabilities, but I will point out that a) I didn't specify Erle Montaigue's Taijiquan, b) Erle Montaigue's Taijiquan is ANYTHING but well-represented in the U.S., and c) I practice Old Yang style, of which Erle Montaigue is simply a high-profile practitioner. We all know your M.O. is to keep repeating the same lies over and over again in the hopes of eventually finding someone who hasn't heard them, but now you're just getting lazy at it. Whom did you hope to fool in saying that Erle's methods are well-represented here?

    RE: "...I was wondering about this maybe you or 1 of your colleague's could help here with something that seems contradictory: Taken from Gary Romel's site:". Despite your best efforts, I know this little factoid continues to elude your staggering mental prowess, but...and I'll type it slowly...I'm...not...Gary. If you have a question about Gary Romel, his views, or his website, simply ASK him. I know you can...we all believe in you.

    RE: "From Erle's site: WTBA Member Application Form:". It's hard having a serious memory disorder, but you've got to keep trying anyway. Take each day one at a time. Make sure your support network is in place. Small victories...just remember, small victories. And so you can tape it to your mirror: "Chris...McKinley...is...not...a...WTBA...Instruct or". There ya go; you're all set. Now, you don't have to keep asking me about it.

    RE: "Perhaps your speaking of the OKlahoma Baguazhang scene as I hear they don't accept challenges out there nor spar they even have a guy claiming to be a TCM Doctor who learned from books, perhaps you should start making change within yourself first then maybe if your fool enough expect others to change as well but I think you much rather hear yourself talk.". I assume you're going to enlighten us regarding the Baguazhang scene in other areas of the US where daily combat is common, since you seem to know so much more about the art than we do. As for your other claptrap, just do a search for the last 3 or 4 times I've caught and exposed your lying...any of 'em will do, they're all the same every time anyway. The only difference is that sometimes you apologize for it and sometimes you don't.

  14. #29
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    relevance?

    Wow guys, congrats on almost an entire thread that was pleasant to read!! Until brassmonkey chimed in anyways....
    Brassmonkey: I fail to see the "contradiction" you are reffering to? What about my statement do you not understand? I believe Keith and Chris have addressed your comments appropriately.

    I hardly think you are qualified to question/comment to Chris on his bagua or his TCM knowledge. But since you insist on bringing it up all the time why dont you present us with your credentials? Or how about even a real name/location, school...etc....Chris has been more than generous with his background information and knowledge on this board, why dont you extend the same courtesy to him?
    Gary
    www.flowingcombat.com

  15. #30
    This is an excellent thread that TaichiBob started. I'd hate to see it undermined. Here are my responses:


    "Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal.. "

    I have two goals: First, I would like to pierce the essence of the arts I am studying. Tai Chi and other classical arts (no matter what culture) are set apart from most sport and combat methods in that it provides other peaks besides victory over others for its practitioners to climb. Tai Chi, like most of the popularly classified internal arts, is a fusion of martial tactics with practices and ideas of the Taoist "Hygeine" school (but since it is a joining of combat and philosophy/mysticism, the martial cannot be ignored, or the practitioner will never understand the essence) . Because of that, the art has untold depth from various angles of approach. Second, I would like to teach the arts as a way to enhance a person's life--a physical education approach so to speak.

    "Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa).. "

    I have trained in Shotokan karate, Okinawan Kempo, Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. I am currently studying Yang style Taiji Quan, Hebei Style Xing Yi Quan, and some Ba Gua--emphasis is on the Taiji and the Xing Yi. The other arts benefit my taiji by providing strength and CRE as well as giving insight into the interpretation of internal power that each of the other styles offer. At the same time, however, my taiji progress has been slowed by studying other systems. But that is a price I'm willing to pay to satisfy my curiosity--I have a lifetime to learn.

    "Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training.. "

    In my opinion, there are spiritual aspects to taiji. But they are locked in the time and space of culture, especially within the Taoist hygeine practices that strive for longeivity. But I also believe that taiji has enough to offer everyone no matter what culture or religous/philosophical stance. It has to be taught to Westerners with an anthropological approach. The spiritual aspects should be put aside until true mastery of the movements have been obtained (I try to keep talk about qi to a minimum). Only then can the person approach the gate of mysticism with any chance of understanding.

    Just my take.

    keith

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