DFW! OK! TX! LA! Attention!

[C. Martin]

Really now Jas, accept the reality of the situation......it will never happen. Women will not compete with men in combative sports. Why you ask? It's not reasonable or fair I say. You may get you feelings hurt by my suggestion that most men would not allow themselves to fight all out against a women, nor may you agree with the fact that men (especially trained fighters) are almost always physically stronger than women of the same weight and would dominate a female opponent, but that's just how it is. Your idealism is touching, but misplaced. Why do you think we have women's tennis, the WNBA, Women's Soccer, Women's Bowling, hell, they don't even pit men against women in Golf and Pool! Call it discrimination if you like, most men and women would call it equal opportunity, under similar circumstances.

[JasBourne]

Unbelievable. Utterly unbelievable.

There are no adequate epithets to convey my complete disgust with you. You have managed to embody every cliche of classic knuckle-dragging sexism in your posts. Have you nary a single original thought?

Since when has a combatant's pride been a deciding factor in a match? "I'm so sorry, Mr. Shamrock, but you will not be allowed to fight Mr. Gracie, as his ego may be severely wounded should you happen by some miracle to win." Your rationale is that women will be defacto excluded because your big tuff hombres would lose face. I would think that trained fighters would not allow themselves to be handicapped by their irrational fears.

You know nothing about me or my abilities, and yet you feel qualified to judge me before even knowing me. I train in an all-male school that is neither performance nor sport focused, but combat oriented. We do not 'point spar', we fight. It is highly likely that given our focus, we routinely train much more savagely that many of the little tender, emotionally fragile boys that will be attending this testosterone-worship fest. I have earned my level of competence, sir.

Without knowing a single thing about me, you dismiss me as a fighter. Without giving me a chance to prove myself in any way, shape or form, you in one stroke wipe out all my hard work, dedication, talent, and ability. You perpetuate harmful myths with your attitudes, and hold back talented fighters of both genders, and you insinuate that my kwoon brothers "take it easy" on me. They might have something to say about that.

On top of having been born a female, I am also hispanic, a veteran, a corporate executive, and have been known to vote democrat. Any other pre-judgements you would like to make, since we are unlikely to ever meet face to face? Perhaps some of your fighters would be uncomfortable stepping into the ring with a wet.back, better not let people like me in, you know, we all carry switchblades and we'll jump you in da parkinlot and cut chu, mon...

Enjoy your homegrown fightclub fantasy matches. You are correct, you will not see women there, because you do not want women there - it is clearly not about true martial arts combat ability, but about male-to-male hom0erotic competition and bonding. In the front of your mind, you will continue to feel that your view is correct, because no women show up begging to be given an equal chance when there is a big "no girls allowed!" sign on the treehouse.

You will use that circular logic to justify your continued exclusion of good fighters. But somewhere in the back of your brain, you will always know that this is an artificial reality. I truly have no problem if you want to have a boys-only fightclub, but have the balls to call it what it is, instead spouting all that "boys are scared to fight girls, therefore it wouldn't be fair to the boys" garbage, ok? Making someone responsible for the emotional wellbeing of another is ludicrous. Penalizing them for that is criminal.

Should we ever meet on the street, Mr. Martin, I pray that you dismiss me in as equally a cavalier manner as you have today. You will make my path to victory short and sweet by underestimating an opponent so blindly.

[dezhen2001]

that sux ...Go Jas! (my support for a fellow wing chunner )

david

[halfling]

Hmmm I cant let you talk like this Jas. I know I am biased since I am a student of C. Martin's. But i need to set the recort straight on a bit of this.

For one, it is very hard to have conversations like this over a forum since things are often misconstrued and taken out of context.

Please do not turn this into a racism thing with your coments about being hispanic. Raacism has nothing to do with this. But just to let you know, Obviously you know C. Martin is white since he has had his picture on the Tushka website and since you made the assumptions that he thinks hispanics are *******, knifeweilding, violent, criminals as you called yourself. Let it be known that C. Martin is the most unracest person I know. For one, we, I am also white, are very outnumbered by hispanics in our Midland school where Mr. Mar tin instructs. If you look at the pictures from the last fighting tournament, you will see that all the pictues of his students fighting are hispanic. So obviously he does not think that his fighters would be uncomfortable stepping into the ring with you or any other person of a different background or culture.

Since you are being very defensive about being a woman I have some things to say to that. I am a woman student of Mr. Martins and have been for quite a few years. Yes, I now live out of Midland but I go home often and he always welcomes me into class. For the majority of the time I have been a student I have been the only female. I have never been discriminated against or held back because I was a girl. I fight the same as all the "boys" and am required to excell at the same level. In fact, in class when we practice sparring and drills.... I actually get to work with the men contrary to what you may think. Being a female and seeing the group of men that I work out with I would never want to be in a ring with them in a full contact setting. In class, if we do not feel comfortable fighting full contact then we do not. Mr. Martin gives us that choice and rightly so. I have never fought (Sp?) full contact because I do not feel I am ready where I am at now. It is one of my goals but I would never want to step into the ring with a man. Maybe the caliber of men at my school is very rare. They are all excellent. I know I would die if i stepped into the ring with them. THey are all much stronger than I am and more aggressive, I feel by nature most of the time.

I know that it has been scientifically proven that men are physicaly different than women are. For example, I am a swimmer and have been all of my life. Men and women do not compete against each other because men would always win. The mens records are seconds faster than all of the womens. and seconds are a very very long time in swimming. Nanoseconds are a long time in fact. Men's muscles are different and they way they use and store energy is different. I can only speak for the men i train with in our school, but if you think you would like to step up against any of them men in our school, I hope you are as good as you portray yourself to be. Because they are all very good and very skilled. They have been taught by an incredible martial artist and have skills that I feel are unusualy phenominal in caliber.

Please do not be offended. Mr. Martin did say that if you showed up and insisted that you could fight against the men. Obviously he would need to clear it with them first just like he clears all fights. If someone wants to fight then gets someone they feel uncomfortable fighting they can forfeit the match or step down in advance, as has happened before between man to man combat. He is being fair, and I feel you are being unfair. Women and men are not equal and if you think they are, then you will be disapointed a lot in your lifetime.

[halfling]

oops the stars up there blocking out a word block out the word wet back. i was just quoting jas and i didn't know that it would take out the word. Didn't want to offend anyone, just quoting a word from jas.

[JasBourne]

hahaha! No, actually, I did not make any assumptions from his website - I brought being hispanic up as an example of ludicrous prejudice because its the sort of thing I continually personally experience. I'll have to go see what you are talking about. I could just as easily have used sexual preference or religion to make the point.

Being a female and seeing the group of men that I work out with I would never want to be in a ring with them in a full contact setting.

That is most certainly your prerogative, isn't it? I'm glad you understand your personal limitations. That you personally do not feel comfortable in a combat-focused match is quite alright. Please do not assume that I or any other woman is bound by your limitations or mindset in any way.

That women's and men's bodies develop and perform in slightly different ways is not in question. All humans develop in slightly different ways. This is about an individual's combat skill ability using their martial art, whatever style it may be. Two men, both the same weight and skill level, will fight differently based on their own abilities and temperaments. The more muscled combatant will not always dominate. My discipline, for example, always assumes that you will be smaller, weaker, slower, and less aggressive than your opponent. We train specifically to overcome the more powerful assailant.

I'm glad that you want to defend your sifu, but don't bother, his position is indefensible. He told me to my face to "accept the reality" of irrational sexist exclusion, and I told him that this is absolutely not acceptable. If he wishes to discriminate based solely on gender, he can't hide behind patronizing platitude to justify his position. I would think he would be much better served all around by simply allowing anyone who shows they are capable of fighting to fight, instead of making broad and erroneous assumptions that have no bearing on the reality of the individual.

Since you are being very defensive about being a woman I have some things to say to that

I am not defensive, I am outraged. To quote Simone deBouvier: "There are two kinds of people, human beings and women. And when women try to behave like human beings, they are accused of trying to be men."

I am not saying I can whomp anyone that comes along, that is stupid. I am saying I am a competent martial artist and deserve exactly the same respect accorded to my peers, none of whom are being held back at the outset solely because they do or do not own a pen!s, because someone may or may not feel uncomfortable getting into the ring with them.

Yes, Mr. Martin reluctantly agreed that if I made enough of a fuss, he would do for me what he would do with no problem for any male fighter. I acknowledged that. That position makes the whole need for a segregated "Women's Division" moot in that case, doesn't it? Why not just say that from the get-go, without the sexist rationale and propaganda?

There will always be only a few women interested in the combat arts, a small minority both in the martial arts and in the world at large. Few women feel the call of the warrior spirit. But few though they may be, they will be both comptetent and deserving of respect as martial artists.

Whether you believe it or not, I'm standing up for you and all the little girls like you, halfling - some day you might change your mind and decide you ARE good enough to get in the ring, and it would be a shame if someone told you that you will not be allowed to even try for no better reason than because you sit down to pee.

[halfling]

You know what? I have stood up to pee before in my life. I didn't like it one bit. Europe has some crazy bathrooms. I would never want to be male or compare myself to them actually. I am happy being female and happy witht he opportunities i have been given. I have never been held back in any major way because I am a female. I may be younger than you but all that shows is that this world has changed from the male driven society it used to be. Of course there will always be exceptions, i mean the K K K is still up and running rampant.

I am sorry if you have been discriminated against in your life but be happy that society has changed. It will never completely be equal... FACE IT. i say that to you as well, as a female. Like i said before, if you expect this you will be disapointed. I am happy that you want to fight against men. And your right... if at some time in my life i feel i can fight full contact with men. then i would want that opportunity, which has been given to you. reluctant or not, it has been given to you. But up until then, i want a womans division because i plan to get ready and fight in the next tushka hopefully and i probably would not fight or train if there was not a womans division at this point and time. Maybe Mr. Martin has left the option out there for all the women like myself. and he has give you the option you feel you are ready for as well.

Please do not call me a little girl, I may be compared to you but I respect you and will not call you an old bag. I am 20 years old and have had a life with experiences that you may never have. Calling me a little girl implies things that you cannot and will not ever know.

My choice of not fighting men at this point in my life has nothing to do with what someone told me or my inferiority complex. I do recognize my limitations and am very happy with them. I know my strengths outweigh anything. Why are you so adamant on having no womans division? Are you ashamed to fight a woman? Do you feel they are not at the caliber that the men are you want to fight? If so, then you are exactly what you preach against.
YOur comment about how any two men in a ring will fight differently from each other is very correct, obviously. But the differences between those to men are different that the differences between a man and a woman competitor.

I know that my system takes into account the fact that i may be smaller or weaker because Yes I am and Yes i can actually survive in class. i am very glad that yours does as well. But please do not turn that into a point for having no womans division. i think it is a necessity.

And dont tell me who to defend and who not to defend. Just because you can disagree with Mr. Martin doesn't mean i can't agree with him. I can defend him because in the same breath i am defending myself and my beliefs. I was not specifically defending him but myself and people who understand what I am talking about.

He may not be your ideal man. So what? You cannot make everyone happy and I feel that he has made the majority happy, which is all you can strive for. Anymore would be unrealistic.

You are not standing up for me, do not claim to. I can stand up for everything I believe in myself. Thank you for your attempt though.

[C. Martin]

Jas, you have issues that I'm not qualified to discuss with you at any length here. If you want to get yourself into a tift because I have a divsion for women fighters at this event, please realize you are wasting your time and energy. Whatever sex issues you have are not my problem. I run respectable, safe, FAIR event for anyone who wants to attend. Hosting a seperate division for female fighters is nothing new, nor is it anything discriminatory. If you are so passionate, then sign up, and prove to yourself the truth of things. I won't hold you back. I've already made that statement. You seem focused on attacking me for limiting "good fighters", when I have not denied you, or any other female for that fact, the opportunity to fight a male.

The fact of the matter is......NO other females have EVER expressed interest in fighting in the same division as the men. You are the first, and most likely the last. My offer stands.

By the way....since you are so upset, you may consider contacting the UFC, Rage in the Cage, Pride, and other organizations to file a protest. They won't be as open minded as I will, and with good cause.

For the record, I'm not questioning your ability. I know nothing about you, and quite frankly I don't care. If you want to fight, come to the event. You'll get to prove something. What, I don't know. So, if you don't want, or aren't willing to step in the ring to prove your point, this conversation is over.

Thank you Halfling....I'm afraid your wisdom will be lost in the muttle of misplaced anger.

[halfling]

You dont have to thank me Mr. Martin, but i do appreciate it. I live in a crazy world down here in the middle of extremism. You have no idea what i see 15 foot tall posters of everyday on my way to class. Ive seen it all. People have the right to an opinion and its humorus to see them defend it so adamantly sometimes. Jas - that comment was not directed to you, just in general. So dont worry. I dont expect to change an aged mind or an angry soul. Some people never can accept change or someone else's opinion. It's a harsh cruel world.

[JasBourne]

Chris, I acknowledged your offer to make a match available should I truly desire one. May I say that that is, in light of your stated opinions about female fighters, most progressive of you.

My objections were specifically to your "considerations" and blase assertions that I accept institutionalized discrimination as an immutable fact of life. I will not do that under any circumstances.

Should I ever reach a point where I feel capable of competing in professional cage matches such as UFC, I will most certainly contact them at that point. However, you billed your event as (quoting directly from your post) "an amateur MMA event being held on April 27th, in Balch Springs, Texas".

Your post further stated:
"There will be ten fights total at this event, and a few demonstrations. We have fighters from the following systems:
Muay Thai
Submission Wrestling
Shotokan Karate
Brazilian JJ
Shorin Ryu
Greco Roman Wrestling
Kung Fu
Baek Ho Kwan (White Tiger)
Tae Kwon Do
Freestyle

All fighting each other! Limited rules, lots of action. Well worth the trip. "


I was curious. I am approaching a point in my training where I feel that testing myself against other disciplines in open matches will help me tremendously, and that DOES sound like a lot of fun and the chance to learn from a wide variety of serious martial artists. I looked for more information, and it became quite clear that solely because of my gender, I would not be welcome as much more than an oddity; certainly I would not be taken seriously as a martial artist. Your subsequent responses bear this out. The capper is your exhortation that I accept this attitude as inevitable.

I am not hateful or do I have an agenda nor issues other than those simple issues of respect and civility to which all martial artists are entitled.

Really now Jas, accept the reality of the situation......it will never happen. Women will not compete with men in combative sports.

You are absolutely right, Mr. Martin. As long as this type of condescending attitude is held as fact, it will indeed be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Humans will likewise never break the four-minute mile, everyone knows it is a physical impossibility.

I'm truly not interested in further argument with you. I got my question answered loud and clear, and I thank you for that.

[C. Martin]

Jas.....If you had approached me with a request to fight in the same division as the men, I would have entertained the idea, but I would have still expressed my misgivings about arranging such a match. That was NOT how you handled the situation however. You chose to lash out and make bold, incorrect accusations.....and I don't care for that.

The fact that you shield yourself with excuses, and will not come to fight, has proved my premonition that you have no place in the ring with male fighters, at this point in your martial career, correct. Keep training and perhaps someday you'll be ready to show the world that you can fight at the same level, as men, at the same weight and experience level as you.

[Chang Style Novice]

So, Austinites. Can I get a ride? Happy to throw in for gas, etc.

[Badger]

I still cant access the page.



Badger

[Ryu]

I'll fight you Jas! I'll beat you up!
...........Nah I like you too much (plus you'll take my eyes away from me probably)

I am somewhat lukewarm to the issue... it's obvious people seem me as a "chivalrous" person but that doesn't mean I don't think women can fight men. I think it is physically more demanding to fight them because of genetics and reality. But that doesn't mean it's impossible.
Women can have a fighting spirit equal to any man.

However, I think such a tournament could be counterproductive too... Instead of men thinking women are strong individuals with fighting spirit, they might find it acceptable to solve problems with women in a physical manner. I don't know. I'm just saying that to me the idea of "men hitting women" becoming more "accepted" is terrible... from my own morality I guess... but men "competing" with women isn't a bad notion at all. It all depends on how people see it, how the players see it, etc. You know? WWF is allowing women to wrestle with men in their shows...but I really don't think they are giving the image of women being able to handle themselves. I think a lot of men will take it as a way of justifying to themselves violence to women. "she's equal to me, why can't I hit her?" That will be a sad day to me. It twists the notion around into something perverse.

I think women can be just as competitive and skillful as men. And I think women can defend themselves against men as well provided the adequate training. Women for the most part are physically weaker then men of the same conditioning. That's just reality. But that doesn't mean they're not able to defeat them. There's a lot of guys bigger and tougher than me too. Doesn't mean I can't shank em in the kidneys!

um......... wait, scratch that last part.
Where's my coffee? I hate these politically correct discussions. My butt gets sore from the fence...


Ryu

[jointlock]

I am male and I agree with JAS 100%. I have seen women fight in NHB events and they kick a$$.