Hung Kuen

[BIU JI]

Does anyone here on the forum study Hung Kuen at all and know the lineages?

Thanks in advance !!!

[jon]

Yeah im a Hung student and have some idea about various linages though im by NO means an expert.
Ask away and ill do my best to help

[denali]

fung ken? ---huh?

[jon]

Hi Sui-fuw
Im afraid i havent heard of Fung Ken but i have certainly heard of Fong Sai Yuk. Infact according to the legend passed down Fong Sai Yuk and Hung Hei Gwun were infact class mates and training partners. Fong specialised in Crane where as Hungs fortay was Tiger. After the temple was burned they both split off to form revelutionary groups.
Here is were it gets scetchy... This is just legend.

Fongs neice apperently married Hung Hei Gwun and she was also well versed in there familys crane fist.
(Fong had learnt Crane from his family prior to further study at the temple).
Fong Sai Yuk was 'apperently' eventualy killed by none other than the infamous Bak Mei himself.
After this Hung himself challenged but could not manage to damage Bak Mei due to his chigung skills. Hung defeated and depressed returned home to his wife where he began to systhisise the crane with the tiger. He did a good job but it was actualy his son who properly managed to combine the techniques into a new system. Hungs son 'apperently' then used this combination of internal external (tiger-crane) to beat Bak Mei using Crane strikes to the temple and to break his shirt by using Tiger claws followed quickly with pheonix eyes.
This is all obviously just legend and im just throwing it out for interests sake. Im sure there are millions of other versions of the same story, this is just ours.

So i guess according to this Fong Sai Yuks kung fu would have CERTAINLY been related to hung but with different specialisation. Its also worth remembering that Hung himself was a famous revelutionary and many styles were at one point under the 'Hung' banner.

I have to say im inclined to agree with you that these days Hung is often taught with to much emaphis on form and not enough on function. Also VERY commen to see stiff and rigid practioners who are unable to move properly.
Its a weird art, done well it can be devestating but in the hands of a laymen it may as well be a poor form of Karate.

Ok there is my littles legends and storys post for the night

hehe and sui-fuw i promice i will be more carefull about what i read into your posts

[FIRE HAWK]

I thought Fung Sai Yuk practiced Fukien White Crane or the Villiage Hung Kuen in Leung Tings Five Pattern Hung Kuen books is this Hakka Fung Ken related to the Hakka Unicorn style wich some in Hawai say is a Hakka villiage Hung Gar ? What is Hakka Fung Ken ?

[jon]

If you will forgive me being presumptious...

I doubt you would have asked me that if you didnt already have a fair idea about this legend yourself. Can i maybe ask what version of it you have heard and what you know about Fong Sai Yuk?
There is also the famous legend of Fong bathing in his mothers Dit Dar and as such having a body almost impervious to regular strikes.

Do you know much about the history of Fung Ken? What do they have to say about Fongs death?

I certainly dont want to 'debate' history but i would love to hear your version of events if you have one you can give out.
All the best and hope training is going well.
Jon

[BIU JI]

Basically I'm searching for anyone who may have Ha Ho Hung in their lineage. Apparently he learnt and was teaching Fung ken before going to learn pakmei under CLC. There is always the chance he is in someones lineage in a still existing Hung kuen school or even a Hung ga school.
The first 3 levels in YKM have the influence of this style and though it can resemble Hung ga if you look closely at it you can see that what Sui fu says about Fung ken being shorter and closer to pakmei is true .
Although the forms may resemble Hung ga in some of it's principles and focus behind the forms they are again shorter than hung ga and fit in with pakmei principles also.
Ha Ho Hung came from Ko ming province and apparently was one of few "non Hakka" people to be taught this style, due to being of good reputation he was allowed to learn.

Anyway if someone can confirm this or has some"relevant" info Iwould appreciate you in put, thanks in advance.

[FIRE HAWK]

What does Hakka Fung Ken mean in english what style ?

[FIRE HAWK]

Now i see Fung Ken must be this Dragon style that is in Yau Kung Mun that comes from Mui Fa San Yang then Tit Yang Sum Si and then the founder of Yau Kun Mun ,Ha Ho Hung i think. If this is true then Hakka Fung Ken would be a Hakka Dragon style.

[FIRE HAWK]

ORIGIN OF THE DRAGON KUNG FU STYLE
The original stretching and twisting movements associated with Dragon (Lung Ch'uan) were part of Bodhidharma's exercises which he taught after founding Shaolin temple in Honan around 570 A.D. The true emergence of a martial discipline can be traced to about 1565 A.D., but the originators are uncertain. Two legends seem noteworthy. One states that the Shaolin nun Wu Mui created the style by using moves of deception and melding with an opponent. The other credits a monk, Mui Fa San Yang with contemplating his kung fu training and daydreaming about countermoves, when he became inspired by the twisting movements of the dragon. The style was called Yow Kueng Moon, and was advanced by Yang's abbot, Tit Yang Sum Si. Both these stories place the origin at Honan Shaolin Temple. Since then, Dragon Kung Fu has evolved into two distinct styles, Southern (1565) and Northern (1680). Each consists of non-temple variations, in essence units of instruction taken, incompletely, from Shaolin, and molded into family styles. A new synthesis to organize the Shaolin styles and systematize a combined approach was begun in 1972. Of historical note, the style considered southern was the original form brought south from Honan, while northern evolved in the north after the burning of the temple in 1570 A.D.

METHODS AND PHILOSOPHY
Dragon kung fu is essentially an internal, ch'i cultivating method, but initial training is far more similar to a hard, external style than a delicate, reptilian approach. In learning the moves, the student will strike hard, block hard and stomp into each position, with the idea of learning the proper place to be once each movement is complete. Eventually, the method of transmitting power is retained, and the physically strengthened body is able to make transitions in the proper, fluid manner. In turn, this reptilian smoothness helps disguise the attack, making it extremely difficult for an adversary to effectively counter.

Once a purely physical semblance to flow has been mastered, the disciple incorporates the deep hissing sounds to train ch'i flow. Inhaling is silent, but exhalation is deliberate, tense and controlled. Inhaling lightens the body for aerial maneuvers, while exhaling drives power into each technique. Blocking is dispensed with, and parries or simple strikes substituted. At this point, novice and advanced student show very little in common.

On the highest level, an opponent is allowed to tire himself out, evasion becoming the Dragon's key defense. Ch'i control is highly developed, and the degree to which the body must be moved to redirect or avoid impact is under greater control.

The forms that comprise this system are divided by complexity into three categories, and are enumerated below:

Basic
16 Hole
Passing Bridge Three Times
Fierce Tiger Leaping Over Wall
Rescue Master From Single Side
Single Sword and Mount
Press and Hit from Four Sides
Eagle Claw
Bridge Smashing
Intermediate
Touch Bridge (introduces sticking hands)
Venomous Snake Moves Tongue
Hua King's Fist
Standing Five-Form
Cross Standing Five-Form
Turn to Hook and Hit
Five Horses Returning to Stable Palm
Advanced
Plum Flower Punch
Seven Ways of Plum Flower Punch
In each form, one is taught to "ride the wind", a phrase which in large part means follow rather than lead. Provide no opening without first letting your opponent open. Unlike Crane, which also relies heavily upon evasion as a tactic, the Dragon evades primarily by rotation of upper or lower torso with little or no stance movements, while the Crane stylist hops frequently to reposition the entire body. Both styles employ pinpoint strikes to vulnerable meridian targets, but dragon also heavily uses tiger-like punches and clawing techniques, snake-like stance shifts, and leopard-like hit and run strikes to weaken a physically superior adversary. Dragon kung fu also regularly employs low sweeping techniques, but these are not unique; most senior stylists of any kung fu system use these on a weakened adversary.

[fiercest tiger]

The other credits a monk, Mui Fa San Yang with contemplating his kung fu training and daydreaming about countermoves, when he became inspired by the twisting movements of the dragon. The style was called Yow Kueng Moon, and was advanced by Yang's abbot, Tit Yang Sum Si. Both these stories place the origin at Honan Shaolin Temple.

These are the same monks in my history in ykm, but our real ykm is pure internal soft slow movements and does have dragon names in some moves.

Is it the real dragon? maybe , maybe not?

I know that Grandmaster Ha was a very good fighter in his province and was well respected and had good character. He met clc and lyg and was swapping info for a while , then learnt under clc his bak mei. Then left clc and Monk Tit Yang travelled from the north and chose one disciple in the south which was HHH. He became the 1st lay person to learn learn the ykm system outside the temple. The internal was only passed down to his son Ha kwok cheung, most of the teachers in last generation didnt learn it because it was kept from them like yum cha's teacher and mine although when i was at my sifu's house he had pictures of his teacher doing the form and told me he wasnt interested in the internal as a kid as he wanted fast forms. Then his sifu had a heart attack and couldnt leanr it anyways.

anyway it is a very powerful system in its self, only 3 forms and chikung and meditation. I have a great picture of the late grandmaster with the monk and him meditating in a tree. sigung was a devoted buddhist!

later
FT

[FIRE HAWK]

Is this Hakka fung ken is hakka for red fist have anything to do with a style called Shaolin Hong Quan (Shaolin Red Fist) I have a manual by Master Wang Siqian on Shaolin Hong Quan (Shaolin Red Fist) it has the forms Small Red Fist (Xiao Hong Quan) and Big Red Fist ( Da Hong Quan ) are these the Hakka style you are talking about Hakka Fung Ken or Red Fist ? Also I have a video detailing everything on the Hakka Unicorn Kung Fu style not the Unicorn dance i know that the Unicorn style is rare and the Hakka like to keep it secret do you know anything about its history it is a short hand art and interesting art too kinda looks like Pake Mei or Southern Mantis .

[FIRE HAWK]

I find this art interesting if the monk came from the north than wouldnt it be a Northern Dragon style and would it be a Hakka art ? If not a Hakka art than maybe Northern Shaolin Dragon style that could be a missing art from the past.

[jon]

Hi Sui-Fuw
Thanks for the informative post it made a good read, we are a little off topic but its an interesting discussion i wouldnt mind hearing some more if your willing.

Can i ask what version of the Bak Mei - Fong Sai Yuk - Hung Hei Gwun - Hung Man Ting story you have been passed down? Or at least does it somewhat match mine?

I agree on legends being facts based, martial arts legends is actualy one of my little pass times.

Please excuse me quoting it just makes it easyer to organise myself

"you have to ask yourself first,who is the eldest,the cantonese or the hakka to do with k.f?"
* Not dead sure i totaly get your meaning here but ill give this a go...
Cantonese to my knowledge are simply Hong Kong citizens? Hakka refers to the Northern Guest people who if im not mistaken were orginaly royalty before being forced to flee into southern China. I think it would be fair to say that both regular mainland chinese and hakka would have ended up in Hong Kong. Hakka styles have always had there own flavor though and my personal bet would be that this has been passed down right from the time of Hakka being royalty and has gradualy been asimilated into several styles. I couldnt say with any accurcy or even beguin to guess about just what was crossed or assimilated but you can proberly safely assume that Hakka styles have a lot of influence from other regular main stream styles.
I think to answer the basic question though Hakka would have had access to sophisticated methods before the Cantonese but then again many Cantonese were also mainland chinese so im not just how much of a disadvantage this could be.

"have you heard of "the two sessions"?"
* Not by that name, please go on you have me intreaged already

"comunism" before and after,does this ring any bells?"
* Great big nasty loud ones Post comunism kung fu is basicaly rubbish and hardly worth the time spent studying. Especialy the internals.

"why at this time the artists move to hk[which were fshermen bred with manchus]?come on that must ring a bell"
* Yep same with most of the Hung Ga pai and many other of the more prominent Southern Styles. Many still reside in Hong Kong to this day. It was not viable to teach Kung Fu in a traditional manor in mainland china during the 50s.

"most of w/c is pronounced in hakka?"
* Ive long been suspect that Wing Chun is infact a Hakka style and has been addapted by Yip Man to fit differing needs. This is pure speculation but hey im allowed

"all k.f can only be taught in hakka? "
* hehe i hope not man, i work in a chinese resturant and spend all day around a chinese teacher. I wish so hard i spoke the darn language its getting rediculous now

I had heard of Red Fist before but i didnt know it as Fung Ken, i was under the impression the RF was a shaolin based style which would fit in nicely with what has been said.

Does it look very different from other southern Shaolin based styles? You say its still practiced, are there many higher level practioners about or is it mainly a lower level art? (bad choice of words but you know what i mean)

Anyway this is interesting so lets keep the old legends comming and does anyone have any more imput on Fong Sai Yuks life or KF system?

[Rolling_Hand]

How are you guys here?
I just want to say hi to my old friends on this SKF mountain- Jon, Sui-few,and FT.

Forget Hung Keun, Rolling Hand's WC rules...hahaha....bye!!