Ground fighting from a kf viewpoint

[jon]

First a little background:
Ive been trying to instigate a little NHB style fighting and sparring into my workout as i was noticing i was getting complacent and needed to properly preasure test my skills.
Me and several other students and teachers have gotten together and are doing weekly sparring sessions.
At the moment we have me a Thai Boxing instructor, a Shan Shao and kickboxing + southern Shaolin instructor, a high level Wing Chun and BJJ guy who is also trained in the internals. Plus several others who's main claim to fame is just being a student of one of various styles.
Usualy we wack on the gloves and go the tonk standing with basicaly no rules except for dont try to debilitate one another and if someone cops a hard one then step back and let them recover.

Ok now to the point, sorry but a little background seemed necersary.
Today was our second week getting together and as luck would have it we had no access to any protective equipment. We decided to play on anyway and even decided that for once we would actualy keep playing once we hit the ground. Not being able to strike hard made this seem like a good idea at the time.
If ANY of you in CMA have not tested yourself on the ground i HIGHLY surgest you do so now! Its a BIG eye opener, we quickly realised that basicaly we were terrible and the only one of us who had the slightest idea was the BJJ guy, big supprise...
After picking up a few hints of him and a few ground rules suddenly we started to actualy perform reasonably well. We were taking each other to the ground without to much hassle and once there we could continue to fighting reasonably well.

The lessons i learnt...
1 Its hard to take someone to the ground... Unless you know how, all of you guys in CMA who like me used to think that you couldnt be taken down, get ready for a nasty supprise.
I play Bagua and what would frequently happen is whilst i was executing a throw my partner would simply grab hold of ANYTHING and therefore take me with him. If that was not happening everytime we got grappling one of us would finaly start to bring it to the ground, before we NEVER did this.

2 Unless you have ANY ground game chances are you will get trounced by anyone with even minor ground experience.

3 Being on the ground feels VERY alien but supprisingly is not THAT scary. After a while we were basicaly doing a bastedised version of kung fu bjj. Rolling around using minimal force on force and contantly looking to either slip out or pin something for further advantage.

4 Being on the ground is the MOST physicaly demanding form of combat bar NONE. It wears you out at a rate of knots and if your not conditioned well its likely you will lose of fitness alone.

My conclusions.
I have a new found respect for groundfighting and am finaly starting to see its uses. I think i was a fool for taking so long to actualy start practing there but im actualy REALLY happy to know have SOME idea of how to handle myself there.

By the end of the day we were all getting free of mounts and nearly all basic ground locks with no problems and most of us had learnt to sprawl and use leverage standing quite well.

I have a big peice of advice and by now it should be pretty obvious. Get some friends and get on the ground and see for yourself just why we often get distroyed by groundfighters.
Its exactly like being a fish out of water.

[jon]

Some other quick realisations...

It doesnt really matter if your on top or on the bottom if you have some idea what your doing. I managed to get choked out at one point dispite initialising the takedown then rolling strait onto the top of him with my back pinning him against the ground. I got in a head shot with my elbow, he the grabbed me around the neck in a weird sort of sleeper and promptly choked me to tap.

Groundfighting is much more knowledge based than reflex, your reflexs will infact often be wrong and the best way out can often be though something you would have never thought of.
Again i stress, get on the ground and get learning!

You dont HAVE to actualy fight there, if you know some escapes and how to fall well you can often simply get out and back to your feet taking it back where you want it.

Good groundfighting actualy uses very little if any force on force and its application in principal reminded me a lot of Tai Chi. I for some reason had this idea that all BJJ must be brutish and unrefined and infact its the dead opposite.

Can anyone point me out some good sites that have a little basic stuff likes drills and escapes to work on? I wanna get a heads up for next week

[No_Know]

"I play Bagua and what would frequently happen is whilst i was executing a throw my partner would simply grab hold of ANYTHING and therefore take me with him."

More fully control your opponent. I thought that part of a throw was do it such that they don't grab you like you learned can take you too. Or release and break your hold and theirs, so that they don't use your throw to throw you.

You're probablly giving reasonable thopught in light of to what you were introduced.

To me some of Kung-Fu is about use all available resources (ground, wall, objects...) to win, within your Ethical restraints~.

Kung-Fu always seemed to have more than just the lessons. It's unwritten type stuff that lets one know anothers level of study by the varity of skills and development level of any of those abilities to repre=sent understanding. Perhaps some Such.

I hope that you get the information you need, jon.

[fightfan]

Jon, Im glad you had the chance to experience the ground game and plan to continue your knowledge to be a well rounded fighter!
Here are some very cool links to quite a few BJJ techniques Im sure youll enjoy!
http://www.royharris.com/techniques/bjj/index.htm
http://www.teammaa.com/Technique

Train hard and have fun!

[yenhoi]

Sweet.

Welcome to the club jon.

Quote, No_know:

"To me some of Kung-Fu is about use all available resources (ground, wall, objects...) to win, within your Ethical restraints~. "

Very sweet.

[LEGEND]

It is an alien world...that's the reason why some grapplers have success in REAL LIFE combat...due to the panic of those not familiar with the ground. However once u get familiarity...it's a piece of cake to USE and COUNTER.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by jon


Unless you know how, all of you guys in CMA who like me used to think that you couldnt be taken down, get ready for a nasty supprise.

Not trying to be arrogant but believe it or not a 6 foot guy ,in sparring, and my cousin, who was taking highschool wrestling at the time, tried to take me down and were not succesful even though I'm like 5'5. It was both on seperate ocasions before anyone misunderstands Not only that I held my own againts other people as well who tottaly outweighed me by sized and weight. However, I almost fractured my pelvis one time due to incorrect positioning and structure.

I also know a very hardcore cma who used to participate in Pancrase and is hard to be taken down.

Sorry about trying to come on as an overconfident fool but I'm just trying to let you know it is possible.

Don't get me wrong I respect bjj and all grounfgithing arts. I may be confident but i'm not a fool.

[Kristoffer]

I hate doing groundfighting with ignorant beginners.. I REALLY hate doing groundfighting with ignorant beginners that weigh a ton and has wrist the size of a tree root!! No technique, No nothing `cept brute streanght. I really hate that.

[fightfan]

ttt for jon

[dre]

. . .And so it was that Jon converts to the other side. . .

[Xebsball]

So you say we should try bjj eh?

http://www.despair.com/demotivators/risks.html

[jon]

Hi peoples.
Thanks to everyone for posting and a big thanks to fight fan for the great links.
To answer the idea that im now turning to BJJ, NO im not.
Ive just become painfully aware that my ground game is VERY poor and can be exploited by someone who knows what there doing there.
My aim is simply to get a decent feel for what its like to fight on the ground so that if im taken there i stand a better chance of getting back to my feet.
My reason for looking at BJJ for this is that they are proberly the most reputed groundfighting school and i have access to a student of the art who is both quite skilled and willing to share.

This post was not meant as a you should do bjj post. It was simply meant to encourage other martial artists who like me previously have proberly never tested themselfs there.

I have to also say that ive never found the idea of not needing to learn to groundfight becouse you cant be taken down to be a valid arguement. My Tai Chi sifu had a good idea of how to handle himself there and i fail to see why a combat system that claims to be 'compleate' would view groundfighting as somehow not necersary.
If you think you will never be taken to the ground one has to wonder what if your taken by suprise?
I mean this is a silly example but it actualy happened during this very sparring session.
I had been sparring with a junior and wiping the floor with him dispite trying to be nice and offer advice. I was not going hard but it was enough to make him dicide to get me back It was only in fun but keep reading...
He bided his time and waited till i was in the middle of conversation with someone else and not paying any attension to him. He then run accross the floor and dived at my side bringing me crashing STRAIT to the ground with his whole body weight behind it.
I hit the ground with him and the rolled strait back up to my feet. The point to this little story should be reasonably obvious. If he HAD known well what he was doing he would have exploited the oppotunity better and would have known where to go once taking me down and stopping me from bouncing strait back up.
Also becouse i actualy DID have a tiny amount of ground experience i was able to get taken by surprise and get back to my feet all in one motion.


Honestly if you really think you CANT be taken down your deluding yourself.

[Starchaser107]

Good experience.
In the real world anything is possible keep your options open.

[HuangKaiVun]

When I designed my own style, I figured I could be attacked anytime anywhere anyplace by anyone.

I hate that feeling of knowing deep down inside that I haven't done my all to handle a situation. Even if I got beaten in a situation, I wouldn't punish myself for having done my best to prepare beforehand.

Ever since my karate days, I've always assumed that one had to be ready to go to the ground. Larger opponents usually wade through my "polite" light contact strikes, so when they took me down I'd take them down with me. Of course, that doesn't mean that my hit-and-run game can't continue on the ground.

Being 5'4" and 130 in a grappling situation doesn't mean instant loss when I go to the ground. If anything, it can be very hard for opponents to control me. To some extent, grappling can take away some of the size disadvantage. Not to compare myself to Helio Gracie, but the man was about my same size and was able to defeat a lot of bigger opponents. How fun would it have been to see him spar Rickson or Royce?

In close quarters, opponents are exposed to my vital attacks and often have trouble stopping me in that range. But I'd never want to fight a skilled grappler who was bigger than me. Helio Gracie found that out the hard way fighting that 200 lb buffed Japanese master grappler years ago.

[LEGEND]

Funny thing is BJJ is designed for a little man more than anything else...the fact is if u're small and taken down in a fight...the guard will save your life! If u're a large or big man u may not need to use BJJ guard defense. Just try to roll out off the ground ala LION DEN type fighters.

Helio fought not just the 200lb Japanese fighter...this guy was JUDO himself...he fought against the greatest JUDO player in the game and got killed...KIMURA. Hell a submission tech is named after him.