Kung Fu's Advantage Against Ground Fighters

[joedoe]

Originally posted by apeters28
AWWWWW...ok you people think i'm talking about myself. I probably couldn't do it, but I know my shifu could, so thats where it goes from theory to practice. A lot of masters could, and when u become proficient at Kung Fu, and become extremely advanced it no longer is theory, its practical. So therefore they would have a weapon against a grappler.

You know he could? Has he, or is this still theory?

I know my sifu could too - he could beat any fighter in the whole world

[Serpent]

My sifu would kick your sifu's a$$!

[SifuAbel]

Yet another quality thread on KFO.
Yet another reverse troll trying to get the grapplers to dis' kung fu.
Yet another............
Yet another............
Yet another............
Yet another............
Yet another............
Yet another............


It's so easy to rabble rouse here.

[scotty1]

"It's so easy to rabble rouse here."

Yeah, and you always reply.

To be fair to the lad, its all very well saying "go do it" but we are on an internet forum, so if we're here, we're talking theory.

I do agree that these things have to be road tested. But I don't think people should be lambasted for theorising on an internet discussion forum. Although this has been done to death.

[jon]

Im gonna cry foul in a harsh like mannor.
This post is a troll, your trying to be nice but this is obviously a troll. Proof is no further away than your profile...

"I'm a 17 year old high school student who holds a black sash. The style of Kung Fu I practice does a lot of hard full contact sparring, and is very traditional. "
* Your 17 and have a black sash in Kung fu which is traditional. Yep im believing this about as much as im believing im gonna kick some Gracie ass when i can afford a plane ticket.

Read my post which is nearly exactly the same but done in a serious mannor and not a troll. I stated clearly i was taken to the ground by surpise whilst chatting with someone else. In a self defence situation where does that leave you? No time for hitting any five cent peice size targets moving like lighting out of your sight. Only time to hit the floor and scramble like heck.

In all honestly blow all your preasure points for one dead simple reason. You MAY simply miss and be easily distroyed, if you rely on palor tricks i would not expect to be winning any fights.
Im sure preasure points work but im yet to find anyone who thinks there the be all and end all of fighting. At least no one who wasnt trying to sell me anything.

This post is a troll...

[apeters28]

GUYS!!!!

The only martial art I have ever done is Kung Fu, and I'm obsessed with it. I don't post on here very much, and I really don't have that much interest, or really care if someone rips on Kung Fu or not on a message board. Why can't anyone respond to my message without calling me a troll? This is a message board, and I had this question in my head so I wanted some input from other martial artists. What now we're so paranoid we have "reverse trolls"? I mean what kinda people have that much time or energy to put into making kung fu look bad. This is my only name.

[chingei]

Originally posted by apeters28
AWWWWW...ok you people think i'm talking about myself. I probably couldn't do it, but I know my shifu could, so thats where it goes from theory to practice. A lot of masters could, and when u become proficient at Kung Fu, and become extremely advanced it no longer is theory, its practical. So therefore they would have a weapon against a grappler.

have you seen him do it, in a violent conflict?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Tigerstyle
What's wrong with learning to sprawl? It directly addresses a skilled (and non-skilled) takedown attempt, and it's not a terribly difficult technique to learn.

but it is terribly difficult to pull off against a skilled grappler

[jon]

apeters28
My appologies for the troll comments, i will do my best to give you a decent answer.

"A real skilled Kung Fu practitioner (not saying i'm one) could easily take advantage of a man diving at his legs trying to take him down by hitting him with pressure points shots to the temple as well as other parts of the head."
* Very true but doesnt account for several important situations.

1 What if your taken by suprise and dont have a chance to apply preasure points.

2 What if your drunk or tired or in any other state where by accuracy of that kind would not be possible.

3 What if your simply not that good yet, should you wait untill you are before learning how to deal with a grappler or groundfighter?

4 What if your attacked by someone you know, say your girlfriends jaded ex and its a party infront of all your friends. You should you smack him in the temple if he attempts to tackle you in a drunken rage?

5 Simply what if you try and miss and they manage to get though taking you to the floor?

There are to many variables to say you cant be taken down or could never get into a groundfight. The truth is the best way to deal with this sort of attack is to simply train defending it.
One of the great things about grappling is unlike striking its quite easy to test and refine and sus out what does and does not work.
Just get some friends around and try figuring out different ways of dealing with someone attempting to take you down to the floor.
The when you get on the floor why stop there?
Seriously why bother trying to find excuses why you dont need to learn something? If you dont WANT to learn then thats one thing but dont kid yourself about the consequences. I dont exactly LIKE stance training but it doesnt mean i dont understand its benifit and practice it anyway.
Hope that was a little more use to you.

[Ryu]

but it is terribly difficult to pull off against a skilled grappler


That's absolutely not true in my opinion. A sprawl can be used against very good grapplers (I have done so myself). Yes you need skill in it to pull it off, but that goes for anything.

apeter,
You have to realize that posts like these are seen as trolls because of the nature of the comments in them. If you want a true response, this is what people will say.

You and your sifu are discussing theory on how to beat a grappler. Neither of you have tried these techniques out on a good grappler, but you insist that your sifu can beat them all up. This is a logical fallacy because you have never seen him do it, and he probably hasn't done it in real life either. To simply talk about what "should" happen is not going to overlap what "will" happen unless you honestly train for it.
One of the absolute number one reasons people lose to grapplers is because everyone who doesn't understand the art UNDERESTIMATES them. They think they will fight in a certain way, and suddenly when the real fight happens they find themselves in a helpless situation for which they have no skill or understanding to escape from.
If your sifu is teaching you how to defeat grapplers, he better have proved his theory in the past, and continue to test it. Otherwise he is giving you false confidence. I can beat 'grappler" too.....but I do it with grappling knowledge, well practiced escapes, etc. Understand that saying and doing are two different things. You can't fall into the trap of not testing your martial arts theories.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Whether it is a troll or not, it can be a very good question for someone who isnt sure of how these things may or may not work.

I think first of all apeters, you have to watch that what you say isnt absolute, there are no absolutes in the martial arts. What you say could and could not be considered correct.
For instance, if I am a kungfu master and I face off against a mediocre grappler, I may be able to hit him where it counts before he tackles me.
If I were a mediocre kung fu guy, and was facing a well trained grappler, I am probably a dead man.
The ultiate point is this, you should train for all the eventualities. If you are confident you can take a grappler with one shot, then good for you! But, you should also train for the idea that you might miss, of he might be just enough to get through you and take you down. THEN what do you do?
This works in reverse as well, any grappler who doesnt train to handle that first shot ( and I will concede this to you grappling maniacs you guys train much harder at this then we strikers do at grappling) can get himself into a lot of trouble.
Your fighting strategy should include all ranges and as many possible situations as possible. You dont necessarily have to go to another art to lfill in gaps so much as study with another art to understand how to applky your own skills.

[apeters28]

Thank you redangel, that was the best reply, and thats all i meant. I was talking about using it as a tool, not an absolute, and it may not always work. But it is a defense against a grappler, and it is possible.

[apoweyn]

apeters,

"A real skilled Kung Fu practitioner (not saying i'm one) could EASILY take advantage of a man diving at his legs trying to take him down by hitting him with pressure points shots to the temple as well as other parts of the head. If someone gets hit squared in a pressure point used for a destructive purpose, they AREN'T going to be able to continue trying to take me down."

it's this sort of statement that are getting you into hot water here. let's assume for a moment that pressure points work. the 'fact' that the technology exists doesn't make it EASY to apply. this sort of argument generally devolves into a discussion of what 'superior practioner of style X' would do to 'inferior practitioner of style Y.' because if you AREN'T assuming that 'practitioner of style Y' is inferior, why aren't you figuring in that they might have countermeasures in mind for these pressure point strikes? (precluding the EASY use of them to your advantage)

anyone worth anything is going to have their own tactics going as well. so if this is only a theoretical exercise, we could go back and forth for days just what we'd do and how. and that wouldn't bring us any closer to reality than we are now.

could you drop someone with a pressure point strike before they take you down? presumably, yes. would it be easy? no. it would be reliant on good timing, aim, form, etc. just as the opponent's attacks, countermeasures, etc. would be. and we can't fully know and/or improve upon those variables without practice.


stuart b.

[apeters28]

Thanx apoewyn, good response

[apoweyn]

no worries, apeters.

stuart