Guns for protection...

[red_fists]

You implied that I'd be killed trying to use a gun in other countries. Maybe, maybe not. I train for firearm disarmament, and I study the psycology involved in a firearms encounter.

Sorry, study does NOT equal skill or a attack by 3~4 armed people that care 0% for your life and are prepared for you carrying a Gun.
This are the situations I encountered and have seen.
The same way I have seen a Guy blow a 10yr old Boy away for stealing Bread 20c worth.

You study in the States this does not mean that your knowledge will transfer equally well to other places.
Especially places that don't allow Guns like Japan or where your gun might be illegal.


As for your statistics, they can say anything you want them to. But I've experienced it, and lived, worked and trained with others who've experienced it. And we all will give you a collective "BULL" on your statements (I know, I'm taking liberties here speaking for them. But I feel safe in doing so).

I have lived, experienced it as well, that particular place was considered the most dangerous place outside an actual War Zone.
But I guess your experiencs counts more than somebody elses.


You ask why if guns only give a better chance does every one insist on having one? Obviously, it is because guns give a better chance.

So does Awareness training, MA training and many other things.
Point being??


As for your guns and automobiles analogy, it doesn't hold water either. Licensing drivers does not make them safe. One only has to look at the high numbers of accidents and deaths on the highways to see that.

Why dosn't it hold Water.
I thought statistics mean nothing, so don't now go quoting them on me.

Any irresponsible Person in a Car,Plane Board or holding a Gun will get others Injured or killed.
THAT IS THE FACT.
If that is the case I would say put control in place on who gets to drive a Car.


Last, you state that our Constitution does not give us a free for all. That is true, and you have unknowingly touched on the heart of the issue. Ultimately there are only two philosophies regarding the role of government.

The role of the Goverment is to act on behalf of the Citizens, and to work in their interests.
If you don't like the Goverment get the current one out and vote a new one in.And you don't have to wait for the next election to do this.
There are many ways to counter laws being passed and similar things.

The Goverment has only the role that the citizens of the Country give it, pity is that you Guys forgot that.

The Constitution is NOT written in
stone and can be changed and amended and I think it has happened before.
I am Austrian, some Jerks voted Joerg Haider into office.
Guess what he wasn't there for very long. :P
That is the POWER of the Citizens even when living abroad, I and my fellow Citizen tell the Austrian Govement what to do not the other way round.
Why does Austria not use nucelar power, because we the Citizens say so.
If I wanna change somthing, al I need to do is get enough like minded people to force the Goverment to listen.

Will Austria join NATO and loose it's neutrality, depends on how we the Citizens feel about it and we will know once the referendum is taken.

The same way we let the Goverment do it's Job, but when we disagree or want something they better listen to us if they wanna keep their paychecks coming in.
What I think is wrong in the US is that the Citizens have become to complacent, soft and happily let others make decisions.

Whereas I also see a lot of "paranoia" coming from people like you, that appear to be running scared of the big bad Goverment.

Not sure where your current Goverment is heading, but a lot of my US friends ain't living there anymore since the new administration got in.

Peace.

BTW, interesting Poll on E-Budo:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...hlight=Wussies

[scotty1]

"I have lived, experienced it as well, that particular place was considered the most dangerous place outside an actual War Zone. "

Could you expand on this? Where was it? What were your experiences?

[red_fists]

Originally posted by scotty1
"I have lived, experienced it as well, that particular place was considered the most dangerous place outside an actual War Zone. "

Could you expand on this? Where was it? What were your experiences?

Easy, the Place was Johannesburg , South Africa between 1987~1997.

Experiences being mugged 3 times, House broken into twice, being shot at a few times.
Having to live with Home Security like a Prison and Alarm/Immobilizers on all my Bikes & Cars.

Not too mention a few limpet(sp.) mines placed by Supporters of a now Nobel Peace Price Holder close to where I worked.

Granted I enjoyed living there apart from the violence and insecurity.

Peace.

[scotty1]

Yeah man heard bad things about Jo'burg, not stopping at red lights etc.

[Radhnoti]

dnc101, this was beautifully phrased:

"Ultimately there are only two philosophies regarding the role of government. The higher view is that men are basically good and are capable of governing themselves- this is the view of our founding fathers. The other view is that men are basically evil and incompetent and must therefore be controlled- this is the most common viewpoint. Our Constitution (but not our present government) puts the responsibility for your life and your actions on you, the individual. "

In this you've said something I've always thought, but never been able to vocalize. Thank you.

Myosimka, the view of the Constitution I support is (in dnc's words) "the higher view". But, you already knew that, as I'd already pointed out the foolishness of the 18th (prohibition) right? The Constitution might be a bit vague, but there's a common thread running throughout (minus the part that was wisely corrected ) and that's the freedom of the individual U.S. citizens.

And I think my analogy is a perfectly acceptable one. Gun control groups want everyone to register their weapons, New York (last I heard) was wanting every martial arts instructor to have to become licensed. It's not just the FACTS that come under scrutiny in instances like this, it's the public perception and reactionary nature. Perception: Guns are dangerous. Answer: Ban them. Perception: Martial artists are dangerous. Answer: Ban them. But everyone knows you can't just up and BAN something in this country, you have to slowly build up to it. Demonize the opposition, chip away with laws of restriction so when you eventually DO get to a ban it's not seen as such a radical step.

Just curious red_fists, did you at any time in your travels carry a firearm? Thanks.

[illusionfist]

Quoting Beccaria is cool, but he's also the cat that thought biological and physical features could be SOLELY used to tell if somebody was, or could be, a criminal. He's definitely a criminology pioneer, but he is an indicator of how far we have come, haha. If we kept his view, 95 pecent of the populace would have been dubbed a criminal.

On the other hand, i totally agree with the quote from Jefferson. Although interpretation can be a tricky thing, and especially with the constitution. The right to bear arms can be interpreted in a lot of ways, which is why the Supreme Court has a helluva responsibility. One angle can be that the right to bear arms does not necessarily constitute firearms. Another angle could be the interpretation that the constitution is a living document thusly recognizing the need to adapt to the evolution of arms, therefore including firearms.

Here is a quote that one of my students is fond of, i thought i'd borrow it and just throw it out there for y'all-

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to
whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism
is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood,
just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have
reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the
mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing
the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused
with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of
their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know?
For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-- Julius Caesar

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dnc101
Joe, I can't confirm that statistic, but it sounds plausable. Besides those who aren't well trained and practiced, even professionals can have problems. It is one thing to shoot at targets, and another to shoot at a live human being- especially if he is moving, hiding, and/or returning fire. Add to that inclement weather, low light conditions, or better yet several squad cars with all their lights flashing, and you have a recipe for a few missed shots.

Another interesting stat- most cops and criminals who are shot in confrontations where both are armed and facing each other are shot in the arm holding their weapon. This is because their eyes tend to focus on the weapon, and their own weapon follows their eyes. So you have two guys, each focused on and pointing at each others weapon, their palms sweaty, hands shaking, their brain screaming GUN!!!!!, their bladders probably emptying... and one of them pulls the triger. Guess where the other guy just got shot?

Then there is the FBI- they are famous for getting shot in their back sides. You see, after each course of fire on the range they used to have to stop and pick up brass. As martial artists we all know that how you train is how you fight- well, in the heat of battle it seems that a few of them have been known to bend down and pick up their brass before reloading. Sort of like the Yankee muskets found on many Civil War battlefields which had been loaded numerous times, but (fortunately for young Billy) never fired. To be honest, I can't really confirm the shoot the moon story. But it too sounds plausable, and the FBI is the butt of many jokes and tales with local law enforcement agencies, as well as some of the less savory characters I know. Just thought you might get a kick out of it.

Thanks for that dnc.

I guess in that case doesn't it make the argument of a gun for self defence kind of weak? I can understand that it can act as a deterrent, but it can also escalate a situation. Aside from all that, if two people draw a gun and start shooting, and a huge percentage of the shots are going to miss, it weakens the defence value of the gun doesn't it? If law enforcement officers who are well trained and spend a lot of time in practice (admittedly this is an assumption on my part) can have such problems, then how can the average person on the street hope to fare any better?

[red_fists]

Just curious red_fists, did you at any time in your travels carry a firearm? Thanks.
Yes, I owned multiple Firearms, aswell as going hunting with my Family(did Crossbow for Wild Boar as well).
So I am familiar with Guns and their usage.
For fun I still prefer "Quasar" & "Splat ball" though.

Guns can be very effective, I have seen People running away scared when Friends slapped Leather.

But in my and my friends Opinion they are overrated, glorified and in about 70% of all mugging, attacking situations useless, as you cannot draw and fire them quickly or effective enough.

Alos guns are distance weapon and loose their effectivenes quickly as the range gets closer.
Also how many people are good enough shots to really stop an attacker with 1 shot??

Seeya.

[dnc101]

You asked how, if given the high percentage of misses, can the average person fare better than the "professional"? The simple answer is to practice more. Remember too, this is not in every case- many firefights are settled with one or two rounds. Also, far more unpleasantries are settled without a shot being fired, though Red Fist is right in saying not to count on that being the case. In the cases where several shots are fired and several solid misses scored, one of the biggest reasons is that someone is panicked and in a hurry because he thinks he's about to get shot. If you don't have a gun, he might not think that. You, on the other hand, should try to place your shots well and save the sleezball the embarrasment of all those misses. You may even make him a celebrity as your friends all marvel at the little hole you placed right under his nose (not between the eyes, unless he was leaning forward). Better to have a gun and not need it than to find yourself facing someone with a gun (or other weapon) and not have it. And remember, we are all martial artists here, so to us the firearm is just another weapon in our "arsenal", not the only defense available to us.

[joedoe]

Fair enough. Thanks for your replies

[Radhnoti]

I'd like to thank EVERYONE for their replies. The signal to noise ratio on this thread has been pretty high. It's given me a bit to think about, helped me refine my views and get an idea about how others feel about this issue so close to my heart.
Thanks.

[scotty1]

Good discussion. It annoys me when people say there's no intelligent conversation on this board.

[Dark Knight]

"Alos guns are distance weapon and loose their effectivenes quickly as the range gets closer.
Also how many people are good enough shots to really stop an attacker with 1 shot?? "


The average shoot out last 2 rounds.

the distance is only a few feet.

[dnc101]

Let me set the tone for this reply; immagine that I just breathed a deep sigh of resignation. The problem is that I am a conservative, and therefore argue from a standpoint of logic and reason; you are a liberal, and argue from emotions and feelings, and try to call that logic. This is illustrated in your saying that my experiences (presumably in my mind) count for more than yours. I have no problem with your experiences, and you are welcome to your views. However, your interpretation of those experiences I find lacking in logic. It is sad the ten year old boy was shot for a loaf of bread. But in a society such as you describe, if guns weren't available he'd have been knifed, bludgeoned, or who knows... as you said, life means nothing to some people.

You upbraid me for quoting statistics after denouncing them. I did not quote any statistics, I'm merely saying to observe for yourself what is going on on the roadways right in front of you. You can see with your own eyes the kinds of idiots the government licenses to drive, and you can often witness the results. Government sanction is no guarantee of proficiency. This is why your analogy doesn't hold water.

You talk of my countrymen who left because the present administration got elected, and that is supposed to be evidence that conservatism is bad? I know these types- the same ones that ran peeing and squeeling when Reagan was elected. Overdramatic buffoons and cowards who worked themselves into a tizzy over an election. And you call me paranoid? That of course is the liberals favorite insult. My favorite reply is "Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!" As for my running scared, I stayed put through the last administration, which was liberalism in its finest flower. Now, by your logic, those who run are really heroes while those who stay are running (nowhere) scared. I'm perplexed... .

"Study does not equal skill" you say. True, study + practice = skill. I said I do both. You also say that because some people care 0% for my life, and because I study in the States, my skills will not transfer and I would get killed. It is hard to believe that you would base an argument on that premise on a martial arts forum, but there it is. So I'll answer it. I train here because I am here, and fighting and awareness skills do transfer- I pack them with my underware whenever I travel. I'm not saying I'm badder than those you speak of- I'm probably not. But, like having a gun, having a few other skills improves my chances dramatically.

You say that martial arts and awareness training give you a better chance also, and imply that guns are not necessary. I agree (even though you are contradicting yourself)- fighting and awareness skills are good. And there are times when firearms may be undesireable for a number of reasons. But this does not mean they are never desireable. Sometimes they are downright necessary, like when facing a bunch of your 0 percenters. By the way, I won't argue about whether or not J-berg is the worst, but we have our share of those lowlifes here. So do most places. That is a good reason to aquire all the skills and tools we've discussed here.

You finally get to the role of government, which you say is to act on behalf of its citizens and work in their interest. Then you describe that interest as licensing and controlling those citizens. You obviously subscribe to the philosophy that we are basically evil by nature, incompetent and in need of being controlled. I disagree, even though you seem to only think a government should impose a little control. Problem is that governments tend to aquire more power and exercise more control. True enough that it is up to the people to restrain their government. Unfortunately, history records that on many occasions the only option open to the people was armed rebellion.

Voting... you talk a lot about that. Let me leave you with a poem by Keats (if you dis me on this you'll hurt my feelings as, except for a couple of Limericks, this is the only poem I ever memorized).
A statesman is an easy man, he tells his lies by rote.
A journalist makes up his lies and grabs you by the throat.
So stay at home and drink your beer, and let the neighbors vote.

[red_fists]

Dnc101.

Lots of talk and not much said, consider becoming a Politician.


Last Post on this Thread.

You might not like my views and my Country, but I can get a Gun at ANY time and keep it without any fear of the Goverment ever attempting to take it away from me.

You see controls if done properly work both ways, pity, that you Guys can't see that and keep pounding on your same old studid arguments.

I offered a different viewpoint as have others, but I get the feeling that you Guys know better and thus don't need to evaluate other situations to see if using different methods can actually improve matters.
Stay where you and I stay where I am, cause to be honest I wouldn't wanna live in the USA .
Yes, my Friends have left as they can find better work, higher pay & better living conditions outside of the USA.
Examples:
Automatic Medical Insurane and Pension.
A place where women an walk along at night and teens can take train/sub at 22:00 without anybody worrying about them.
I see cars in the Road with their engine running while somebody picks up some cigarettes in a store.

So I say, yeah, give me some controls and restrictions if those are the benefits.

Cheerio.