Guns for protection...

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

Kinda a straw poll here

How many people know or have been broken into while resident ?

Personally, never, though my neighbours got done in the middle of the afternoon. On a personal note I would much rather face a instruder arming myself with a good old blunt instrument than a firearm, a good shot from a hickory ecrima stick would do the job for me, but shooting someone,hmm I think I might well pause before pulling the trigger, how would I know until it happened ?But I would strike with the stick without a second thought. As for the street crime, I think it would have gone up anyway, most of the phone crimes seem to be when the victim is not aware of anything until they are stabbed/hit/shot etc. I lived in a rough area of south london for many years and saw 2 people die in different fights in pubs (one stabbed through the neck, one battered to death with his own baseball bat), the thing that got me out without a scratch was awareness, I kept an eye on the room, left if it looked like trouble and generally did not act like a tough nut (but not a wimp/victim either). So for me, if they relaxed the law on guns here, I doubt I would bother for me, maybe for the wife though.

Peace

[straight blast]

People have died for the very freedoms you are bashing now

And those same freedoms are still killing them now.

Look at Canada, New Zealand, the tough and rumble Aussies, they to have fallen to that mindset.

That's right. I realise that not owning a gun doesn't make me as tough as someone who does, but I can live with it.

I live in a country where I wouldn't have the faintest idea where to buy a concealable weapon. I have fired guns on a farm, I have fired guns on a range. I like the fact that my drunk redneck neighbour has no opportunity to get hold of a firearm. I don't know anyone who has been injured by a gun, nor does anyone I know. If someone is killed with a gun pretty much anywhere in Australia, it's prime time news. I feel safer at night knowing that the people around me don't have guns.

On the other hand however if everyone else had them I suppose I'd want one too. It's funny how when you don't have access to them they're suddenly not a problem. And funnily enough,

We haven't had a single schoolyard massacre . We've only had one imbecile go nuts with a gun over here.

because I know there is no god or higher power or santa claus or easter bunny or father time, just because you are a fool that believes in the occult, fairy tales, and the hilarous idea of god and christian dogma does not make you any more moral than me, in fact IMHO it makes you a fool, but that is despite the point.

You know that huh? Props to you. It's people like you that possess no knowledge (Christian and occult in the same sentence..sheesh ) that should never be allowed near a weapon. I've enjoyed your other posts but this one?

Grow up little fella.

Or buy a gun That should make up for your lack of pee pee.

The above does not apply to sensible gun owners, only the borderline pyschos like BJ. Thank God you can't shoot people over the Internet.

[Radhnoti]

The problem with any gun regulations (as I see it) is who decides what gets regulated and how far they go. I oppose any sort of gun regulations, simply because so many people who want a total gun ban have said from the beginning that they'll have to take it in small steps. Requiring registration of fully automatic weapons doesn't seem like a big deal to most (myself included), enforcing a waiting period doesn't seem to be a big deal either...it's just the fact that there's this slow but steady progression. And each small step seems to make the next more reasonable in the public's perception. And the ADMITTED goal (of a very vocal minority anyway) is a total ban. I suppose I would support not allowing those convicted of violent crimes being allowed gun ownership, maybe even a repeal of the worst offender's citizenship...but, to me, U.S. citizens should have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't step on someone else's rights. The right was earned for us long ago and through the years generations of brave men have been willing to die to protect our way of life...which includes gun ownership. It's funny to me that people say, "How brilliant that our founders insured that we're allowed to say whatever we want! How brilliant that the press can't be controlled in our country!" Etc. Etc. But when the issue of gun ownership comes up suddenly the Constitution is some old, out of date document guaranteeing a freedom no one deserves and the phrase can suddenly turn to "What were those old fools thinking?". It seems to me that if our founders were SO brilliant when writing every OTHER sentence in our Constitution, it's selling them short to assume they were taking a short sighted view of gun ownership.
Freedom isn't bad, it's what makes our country great. Freedoms don't kill others, (!warning! cliche ahead) PEOPLE hurt others. Punish those who hurt, don't take everyone else's freedom away on the off-chance that it will stop the "bad guys". Because, frankly, it won't.

[JWTAYLOR]

Morals are passed down from one's family and one's enviroment

Now, I hate to get involved in this one, but, Black Jack, I've got to step in here and ask you if you're sure about that. Or at least to clarify that statement.

JWT

[Lice]

Radhnoti,

I can't think of *any* reason a law abiding citizen would need a fully automatic weapon. And I can't think of any reason we should be allowed to own one.

Maybe I'm missing something though.

[Black Jack]

We are starting to get areal moron stew going over here.

Lets look at some points:

Willow Sword- It matters not to me if you are christian, jewish, or with any other spiritual path, but for some reason you have a problem with free thinkers, or in this specific case atheists, you seem to have a problem getting your head around the fact that people don't need the ten commandments or a wacky belief in religous based/higher powers to have morals and solid values.

In that respect you have a LOT to learn.

The world does not start and end inside the boundaries of what you perceive as spiritual and to be honest your slanted viewpoint on how someones religous/spiritual viewpoint should directly relate to if they own a gun or not is pretty funny.

Straight Blast- First lets get this out in the open my nutless mate from down under, christianity is an occult practice, sorry to bust your bubble but it fits the descrition, christianity is a cult movement and there followers use occult practices and rituals.

Just because it is a major religion does not grant it any special favors from any other wacko spiritual movement.

Now for the important stuff, that little thing called the loss of your freedom, you remeber that don't ya, when the government decided that you were to stupid to make your own decisions.

It was only 12 days after the senseless tragedy in Tasmania that your Prime Minister brought about total gun refrom that took away the rights of law abiding citizens to carry legal, licensed firearms that statistically were rarely, if ever, used in the commission of a crime in Austrialia.

Crime statistics involving firearms have not changed since the introduction of the gun ban laws, nor has the murder rate, because traditionally Australia has never had a high rate of crime involving firearms. Because of your elitist Parliament and the lack of a organization like the NRA you guys bent over backwards and allowed these laws to be passed, without a gun lobby there was no outcry by the ordinary people, you just sat back and got ripped off by a Hitler esque gun buy back scheme that cost the Australian taxpayer, close to a billion dollars.

Ordinary Australian people who like the large majority of firearm owners worldwide, were and are responsible citizens, who store, handle and own their chosen weapons in a responsible manner, befitting an adult. They register their guns, they are licensed to shoot, and they comply with all legislative requirments pertaining to the ownership of a gun.

If you believe the media and you think your police departments, politicians and selected government can really help you in the event of a violent crime than I feel very, very sorry for you.

You have given up your liberty for the illusion of freedom. Be carefull it does not bite you on the ass.

For the sake of information lets take a look at that Port Arthur shooting anway. Martin Bryant opened fire on tourists at the Broad Arrow Cafe and kiled 20 people and left 13 others injured, 19 of those killed were the result of a gunshot wound to the head.

Twelve days after Bryant's shooting spree, massive new restrictions were imposed on the civilian possession and use of personal firearms-restrictions specifically designed to reduce the number of lawfully owned guns in the hands of Australians.

What is more frightening than that is the fact that there have been numerous rumors to cover-ups about Port Arthur that surfaced years later, supposed major descrepancies in the offical accounts, evidence to suggest co-conspirators besides Bryant, maybe a conspiracy designed to force the Australians into surrendering their guns, I don't know, the damage is already done now anyway, but again I'm just a borderline psycho anyway

One thing is know for a fact, the Australian media condemned Bryant as gulity without any evidence, a man by the way who only had a IQ of around 80, even though he pleaded not gulity to each of the 70 plus charges against him, that is untell his new attorney got him to turn his plea.

Here are some irregularities of the case-

1. Eyewitnesses were not interviewed when it became known their stories would clash with the government account.
2. A credible time-line connecting Bryant to a number of the killings and his travels was never made clear.
3. No forensic evidence of Bryant's physical presence at the Broad Arrow Cafe was EVER established. It did not help that the media had already posted his face up everywhere, contaminating all eyewitness identification.
4. Prime Minister John Howard, in a direct violation of your constitution, suggested that a coronial inquest was not required and called for immediate demolition of the Braod Arrow Cafe, even though the survivors wanted more information.
5. Bryant's large financial resources would have allowed his lawyers to hire as many psychiatrists and private investigators as needed to defend him, yet none were.

Those are some good questions that needed answers.

[Lice]

Black Jack,

You shouldn't expect to get respect for your athiest views if you can't be respectful about their religious views.




The Agnostic Lice

[Black Jack]

JWT,

First I wanted to take the time to make sure, even though the damage is already done, that I don't think christian people are stupid or ignorant on the whole, genralizations made by me are as bad as those made by those who were posting above, it just irks me when others put spiritual viewpoints up as something of fact and not personal viewpoints.

Now to your question and I should seriously make myself more clear on that.

As I think the parent part is a off track for a lot of good people.

I believe that one develops their sense of right and wrong, not so much by their parents, as their are a LOT of MESSED up parents out their, but by a combination of factors encountered in ones enviroment.

The factors I believe that CAN be involved are biology, one's parents, one's family, one's mentors, one's enviroment, one's experiances, the strength of one's inner character to overcome, the mettle they are tested against in the struggle of growing up and becoming an adult, and those who take ideals from the church.

My main point is that one DOES NOT have to be religous or believe in anything of a higher power to have good and solid moral fiber, I have friends who had horrible experiances growing up, abusive parents, drugs, family members in jail, but they still forged ahead, that stuff did not stop them from having good morals and values, in fact IMHO it made them stronger people, I also know people who had picture perfect lifes and turned out to be subruban crack addicts, go figure.

I don't have a straight viewpoint on why but I believe it is found in science.

I myself, have never harmed another human being, shot, killed, stabbed, anyone in a unjustifable situation and yet I believe in nothing greater than my own humanity.

[Black Jack]

Lice,

The funny part about that is that my views as noted above are always the first ones to be under attack, go back and read the posts, I never start with anyone in a religous context unless they break the rules of engagment first.

Even then I try and avoid it as it goes no where, but when people state that others should not own handguns because they are atheists are freaking absurd, and then I get involved.

[Lice]

Black Jack,

True, you didn't fire first and Willow Sword's comments affect me also since I also don't follow any religious dogma and live by my own set of morals. In fact, I'm sure we share a lot of the same feelings on religions. But my previous advice (and that's all it really is) still stands, because like you said.. it goes no where.

At least no where good.

Respectfully,
Lice

[Black Jack]

Lice,

So very true. What sucks about our position, and their are a LOT of us out there, is that we somewho feel that we have to contain our comments due to the the current masses, yet they feel they have the right to "snip" away with with insulting little goodies of their own.

I bet we do hold a number of those same views.

Cheers

[JWTAYLOR]

thanks,

BTW, here's a photo of where I grew up

http://www.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=...21b3022a7d6512

Notice what you dont'see. Power lines (we just had a generator back then), roads, other houses. Closest next house was 5 miles away. It was a 19th century lifestyle.

Today, after a long time trying, I find out if I can buy it back. It's the only place I've ever called home.

JWT

[Black Jack]

Wow, that must of been something, It looks very peacefull, thoughI bet you get to see a lot of UFO's out there

I would guess that you picked up a lot of field craft skills growing up, hunting, skinning game, tracking, fishing, again it must of been a experiance.

One's childhood home is always a thing of memories, I get to see mine everyonce inawhile, makes one take stock.

Cheers,

[Radhnoti]

Lice,

I, personally, would see no use for fully automatic weaponry either (as I mentioned). The reason I oppose any further gun restrictions (again as I mentioned) is because gun control groups admit that their game plan is to take the right to own a firearm in small steps. And each step makes the one following seem more reasonable. No one thinks for a SECOND that any sort of gun legislation could have passed in our grandparents time do you? Of course not! Society's VIEW of firearms have changed, and in large part that change has been brought about by an orchestrated campaign by anti-gun lobbies. Some idiot leaves a gun out for a child to shoot another and it's front page news, "GUN KILLS CHILD!" But, the larger number of times just SHOWING a gun stops an assailant cold goes unreported. In this way guns, which are just TOOLS, have been demonized...and our society of blameless individuals gets another excuse for avoiding blame.
Another problem, in my view, lies within your sentence.
Lice- "And I can't think of any reason we should be allowed to own one."
Our government was never meant to exist as some "supreme authority" dishing out edicts it's citizens are forced to obey. Our government was founded by a group of men FED UP with governmental interference, the leviathan we call a government was almost certainly never their intent. To my mind, the less governmental interference we have to put up with the better. More government almost always makes things worse.
'Course that's just the Libertarian in me talkin'.

[Black Jack]

Good post Rad,