Guns for protection...

[guohuen]

Thanks Rad! I love this story! A Swiss Colonel was talking to a German Field Marshall at a border crossing during WWII. The Field Marshall said. " Mein Colonel, you only have 400,000 men in your entire army. I could have 800,000 men on your border in two days. What would you do?" The Colonel replied. "Herr Field Marshall, I would simply order my men to shoot twice!"

[Dark Knight]

"but I don't think our society is responsible enough for that amount of freedom. "

But you want a government to take away the freedom of its people to make that choice.

[Lice]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
"But you want a government to take away the freedom of its people to make that choice.

Depending on the government, I trust the government about as much as I trust society. I'll let you guess how much that is.

But, I'm really getting off topic. My apologies for that.

Respectfully.

[umgong]

Willow sword,
Please do not make assumptions of people's educational background.
I assure you that I live in a neighborhood of professional people (read doctors, engineers, businessmen, etc.) with the low end homes in the low $400,000. So, please don't assume that because I choose to stay and fight to maintain or bring up the standards of safety and security in our neighborhoods that we are uneducated. In argument there is no need to character attack or stereo type...you only show your level of understanding of the problem.
I believe that the difference that we are talking about here is whether or not we stay or cut and run when faced with encroaching blight. The nice thing is in America we have the freedom to choose.
I was brought up to stay and fight...Part of the old school. This applied to CMA too. I was very idealistic and fought against the Chinese gangs using the CMA that I learned to help protect the Chinese businessmen in the 60's-70's.
Guess what? I was asked not to stand up for their rights...by the businessmen. They gave up the fight. They chose to submit to the demands (extortion)of the Chinese gangs.
I saw that in neighborhoods that I lived in. Is that not terrorism? In some areas, I saw pockets of resistance and the desire to better their lives. In those neighborhoods, we became community activists, formed up neighborhood watches, etc....My belief is that it is easier to stop the blight before it becomes established rather than trying to clean it up after it's already ingrained.
I'm 53 now. I'm kind of giving up. The gangs are a lot more mobile...they have cars now. Most people either leave the neighborhoods or they can't hang in for the long haul. I'm just too old for this sh#t. Most of the people that I worked with are gone. Most of the young people I see have the same attitude that you do.
It's a sad time for the United States. Too many victims with a victim attitude in America....but you know? I've travelled a lot and this country is still a lot better than the countries I've visited. So, I guess I'll hang in there and resist in my small way. This country is worth fighting for.
I just refuse to go quietly into the night.
Call it what you will, but that's my take on it and I'm sticking to it.
So you see, guys, it's just a difference in philosophies....and we can agree to disagree.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
"The main difference is in the attitudes. We do not equate guns to our masculinity "


I noticed a lot of other countries feel this way. Here in the USA we dont see it as that, it is as we have always pointed out. Many men have died for our freedoms and we dont want to give them up.

The martial arts can be seen as a way to show your masculinity, a couple guys beating each other, whats the point?

It seems to me that here in the USA we are protecting our freedom, but others are posting comments protecting their masculinity.

Maby you should look inside yourself and wonder what you have allowed your country to do to you.


"Those that would sacrifice their freedom for safety will find they inherit neither."
-Ben Franklin, right wing extremist

Sorry if I did not make it clear enough, but my reference was a bit of a joke. Black Jack suggested that we were nutless or neutered by not being allowed to own guns. My statement was a bit of a joke based on that statement. It was not meant as a serious comment (though I am sure there are some people who do equate their guns with their masculinity ).

Like I said previously, most Australians do not view tight gun controls as a lack of freedom. If you want to own guns and shoot as a hobby, you are allowed to. If you are a farmer and you need a gun for pest control, you are allowed to. If you are an average joe who has no real reason to own a gun, then you are restricted.

Again, I think there is a fundamental difference in mindset between US citizens and Australian and British citizens. You see guns as a fundamental right, and representative of your freedom. We do not. I do not feel that the gun laws in place here are anything but sensible, and I think most of the Australian population agree with me.

[Radhnoti]

You poor misguided.... FOOLS!!!!
Even the language you use (Ex. "If you want to own guns and shoot as a hobby, you are allowed to.") would anger me if it were applied to me. ALLOWED TO!?! ALLOWED TO!?! How dare my government presume to ALLOW me to do anything, I say! I'm a citizen of the U.S. and THAT translates to owner/co-ruler...especially if I have some money and/or people skills to talk other voters into joining me. It's kind of weird seeing everyone else's opinion of their government. You all seem to feel your governing bodies are benevolent, wise and intelligent with your best interests at heart. I think my governing body is near-sighted, easily influenced by personal monetary concerns and more likely to mess things up than help things get better!
I agree with the apparent concensus, our countries are different...but we're sure you guys will see the light eventually.
Note: This was my attempt at light-hearted banter this year, I'm not very good at it. But, please don't mess it up by seeing anything I said in a negative light....everyone has been extremely well-spoken in this thread and I have nothing but respect for what everyone has had to say.

[scotty1]

"How dare my government presume to ALLOW me to do anything, I say! "

Getting a bit off topic here and really just arguing for the sake of it, but following your line of thinking should not heroin addicts and pot smokers be allowed freedom of choice in what they wish to do?

Your government 'allows' you to smoke tobacco and drink alcohol, does it not get your back up that it does not 'allow' you to smoke pot, shoot up heroin or watch certain types of pornographic movie for example? Whether you want to or not is not the issue, the fact is you could not even if you did want to...

Does it not anger you that you are not allowed to do these things, just by the language used?

My point being that sometimes the government does have our best interests at heart....

If I trust the British government's stance on drugs and censorship, why then should I not trust its stance on guns?

[scotty1]

Found this on another forum, thought you guys might find it interesting.

http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/...ML/001652.html


My personal view on all this is that if you did take American public's guns away, they'd be pretty much screwed.

However, the European and Australian situation with crime is not even comparable, as far as crime committed with guns goes.

[Radhnoti]

Great thread scotty1, I really enjoyed it and agree with most of what was said. But, I thought it was kind of strange that you feel the gun situation in England isn't comparable or at least becoming similar with all the facts that've been brought forth in this thread.
Getting back to our off-topic discussion...I believe that an adult should be free to do whatever they want unless/until it infringes upon someone else's freedoms.
SO, to answer each of your examples individually:
Yes, adult pot smokers should be "allowed" to smoke.
Yes, adult heroin addicts should be "allowed" to shoot up. (Though one would hope that family members or local non-government civic organizations would help or have programs in place to help or educate).
Yes, all porn involving consenting adults should be "allowed". When I say "allowed" what I really mean is the government should have never become involved. The fact that my government feels it has the right to disallow such things DOES anger me. Pretty much everything the government becomes involved with, they mess up...it seems to be the nature of the ever-growing government beast. Individuals working for our government become more and more involved in the every day lives of U.S. citizens to increase their power base or to hand out jobs to friends or political allies. And so, the hydra grows two more heads where once there was one...and two more....and two more...and...you get the idea. It's a self-perpetuating beast that must be stopped!



For more off-topic info on how I see things politically go to:
http://www.libertarian.org/

[The Willow Sword]

We seem to all be taking advantage of the "freedoms" we are given. i see it in every post i have read,,from black jacks militia crap to radhnotis freedom all for one one for all. and UmGong: wow what a story! sold the movie rights to that one yet?

THE LAWS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE MADE TO GOVERN THE MASSES,,,GIVEN THAT THER ARE A LOT OF SHEPARDS HERE BANGING THIER STAFFS TOGETHER. THE MAJORITY OF THIS COUNTRY CONSISTS OF A SHEEP LIKE MENTALITY. SIMPLE FOLKS WHO WANT TO LIVE A SIMPLE LIFE AND NOT BE BOTHERED BY ANYBODY. well all you isolationists out there,,,if you had won the battle back during the civil war maybe it would be to your liking now,,,but you didnt,,you lost. now we are a UNION. and with that union comes the responsabilities we have to each other. this INDIVIDUALITY crap goes too far when we discuss guns and protection rights. like i have stated before.THE FREEDOMS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT WE HAVE WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR THOSE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OR MAKE SUFFER OTHERS OR THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE CREATURES THAT EXIST WITHIN.
the NRA takes advantage of those freedoms with thier gun toten egos. the people who smoke in this country take advantage of it with thier denial and selfishness,,,and especially the persons here who are paranoid and think that we are at war with every single thing in this country.
this is a new world of pioneers who will precede this old and outdated mindset that we have the right fight fight fight,,and shoot shoot shoot and kill kill kill.
yes again i will state that i carry a gun legally and i advocate it in these times,,but i dont attract the BS to me by going out and looking for the trouble,,,,and if you live in a 400,000 dollar a home neighboorhood you got cops on your payroll and security systems out the wazoo. also OUr governament which i respect and agree with on some aspects needs to do a better job of MAKING it safe for us in this country. because i dont want to have to deal with anyone carrying a gun on them like its the wild wild west and have this Wyatt Erp mentality. you say the government decides for us? well what have WE THE PEOPLE DONE TO SHOW THEM THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO? RIOT? PROTEST? START A MILITIA?
FIGHT THE VERY SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE? HEY KIDS THESE ARE THE POWERS THAT BE. LEARN TO LIKE IT AND ADAPT AND BE DUALISTIC OR LEAVE AND GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.
OH,,and i will point out that these freedoms that were drawn up for us way back then,,,why didnt those freedoms extend to the native peoples already living here? what audacity and nerve any of you have to spout off freedoms when those very precepts were used to almost wipe out entire nations of native peoples here in this country. its another example of those who take advantage of the freedoms givine them to make others suffer.
put THAT in youalls pipe and smoke it for a while.
im out.

Many Respects ,,The Willow Sword

[Black Jack]

That has to be one of the most irresponsible pieces of drivel I have heard on KFO in a long time.

Which begs the question dear sir.....are you really as much of a ******head as your rhetoric would suggest?

Lets get this straight, being Anti-constitution is being Un-American, period. I have a suggestion, if you like the idea of living in a place where law abiding citizens have no effective way of defending their homes, family, strangers, or self then you can always pack up your sh!t and take off to the UK or any number of other countries who do not allow the possession of firearms.

Why do you think our fore fathers included in the second amendment the words....."shall not be infringed"? Do you suppose they knew something about human nature that you gun banning elitists do not?

We have a responsible gun law here already, its called the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. It's part of the Bill of Rights, the same Bill of Rights that gives you your freedom to run your mouth off, the one that gives you freedom of speech and freedom of press.

Keep putting labels on people or better yet use caps to show what kind of a badass you are, you are a hypocrite who believes that only people of what you deem of importance shoud be allowed to carry a firearm, pathetic....pathetic....pathetic, I am glad that their are a lot more of us, than their are of you.

Here is a quote for you, its simple so you shall not get lost.

"If we lower our standards, we lower the flag"- President Ronald Regan

[Lice]

Having a fundamental disagreement with one aspect of the Constitution does not make one anti-Constitutional and certainly does not make one anti-US. The US Constitution is not some sort of infallible holy scripture. That's why we have amendments, as times change so do the needs of the people and the laws that govern them.

Telling someone to leave the country because of a disagreement of our land's laws goes against the grain of the idea of America. This is a government of the people, not just the people that agree with the laws in place. Someone who believes in gun control is no less entitled to be an American citizen than someone that believes in the right to arms. As a civilized people, we've already decided that some freedoms are not to be allowed for safety or other reasons. Some people believe guns belong in that category. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM UNAMERICAN.

I personally believe our drug policy is bs. Does this make me un-American? Should I move to Amsterdam?

*rant off*

Respectfully.

[The Willow Sword]

[dnc101]

First off, the main reason the Second Ammendment was in the Constitution was (and is) for self protection- from both crime AND government. Our founding fathers did not trust government, even the one they established, to remain a benevolent servant of the people. And, guess what- remember Ruby Ridge and Waco- they were right!

Second, for those of you who don't like the Second Ammendment, that is your right. It is not your right to circumvent it or intentionally misread it in order to mislead others into passing laws which are in direct violation of it. That is not just criminal, not just un-American, it is treason. And you are traitors- lower than any terrorist.

Third, for those who want to make vast generalizations about gun owners being Rednecks, go ahead. I wear that title proudly! It came into vogue in the 60's when hair styles went bad, and the lazy, unwashed draft dodging socialists noticed that their necks were as pink as their politics while us working types tended to get our necks sunburned. So there!

(Actually, I just threw in number three to have a little fun. I have a lot of long hair friends. Heck, my wife even has long hair!)

[Radhnoti]

Willow, I hope everyone IS "taking advantage" of their freedoms. That's why we have them.
You say the laws were made to govern the masses. I think the founders put certain laws specifically in place to be certain we weren't seen as "masses" but citizens. You seem to be saying that pro-gun organizations and supporters are taking inappropriate liberties or that somehow someone owning a gun infringes on someone elses freedom. I fail to see how Black Jack owning a gun steps on someone elses safety or freedom.
You seem to feel that it's the government's responsibility to "take care" of us, and make this the kind of place where you don't feel the need to carry a pistol. I feel that YOU carrying a pistol, and perhaps others like you, ARE the solution. If someone snaps and starts shooting at kids at a bus stop, I would pray someone nearby would have a firearm on their person and could stop the psychopath. In a very real sense we ARE our government (which is the real shame of what our government has become) and responsible individuals stepping up and taking responsibility for their own and others safety should be applauded. You mentioned that you don't think we should "FIGHT THE VERY SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE? HEY KIDS THESE ARE THE POWERS THAT BE. LEARN TO LIKE IT AND ADAPT AND BE DUALISTIC OR LEAVE..." I don't understand what you're saying. We aren't fighting the system, we (meaning me and gun control organizations) are working within it. Fighting political battles with votes, letting our voices be heard...etc.
Finally, about your Native American tangent. Yes, Native American Indians were subjegated...as my Irish ancestors were by English....as the English were by Rome...as Romans were by the Vandals...as they were by whoever ran them to the South...and it stretches back forever. One society/way of life overcomes another as history flows ever-forward...the best you can hope for is that some portion of the society is adopted by the winner. I hope you don't think society is done evolving...we are FAR from the pinnacle. ",,,why didnt those freedoms extend to the native peoples already living here?" They weren't citizens. That doesn't make everything that happened ok, but at the time they weren't under the PROTECTION GUARANTEED by the document you seem to feel is so outdated.

Lice, I think I disagree. If you have a disagreement with one part of the Constitution I think that DOES make you anti-Constitutional. Many specific rights guaranteed in the Constitution can support and ensure other rights. I DO agree that U.S. citizens can (sometimes should) disagree with laws already in place without their patriotism being questioned, and that everyone should be free to speak their mind. But, my mind tells me that the freedoms guaranteed us by the Constitution HAVE to be guarded with great zeal. ALL of them, because if you can tear one down...what's to stop any of the others from being ripped away?