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  1. #1
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    Apr 2002
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    Exclamation fraudulent schools

    I previously posted this on the Southern Forum...

    Preface: I’m writing this not out of malice, but to let other KF practitioners know to not get caught up in something that happened to me in the past. BTW, I’ve been reading this board for years, but haven’t posted on it…

    Fraudulent Schools:
    As many of you are aware, there are many schools in existence that claim
    to teach traditional, effective, real-deal, authentic kung fu, by qualified, well-trained, black sash instructors.

    To many people who are looking for a good school, and who are not familiar with martial arts in general, these words are good selling points. But in some cases, they are just that...words...used as marketing traps to deceive the masses.

    I know of one school in particular. We’ll leave names out for now - a school that I attended for 2 years. The overall vibe seems very nice when you walk in. Nice music playing, incense burning in front of the Sun Toi, class lined-up and working in unison, mirrors everywhere, weapons racks lining the walls. It all paints a very good picture of what a kung fu school should look like - to someone who doesn’t know any better.

    But once someone starts asking questions here, things turn sour. No information is given on the school’s lineage. When I asked if there were any extra-curricular reading material I could use as research to learn more about my art, I was told to only learn what the sifu told you…which is fine, but he never told anyone anything. As a matter of fact, asking questions about ANYTHING was frowned upon.

    For a while I thought the sifu there was the real deal (although he had been dealt a bad rep in most kung fu circles), but he is in fact quite mediocre. Over the course of an 8 month period that I spent deciding whether or not I would remain loyal to him and continue training there, I realized that he has never shown us anything, never explained his stance on his being publicly criticized, never told us of our kung fu roots. He also used all of his students and when they were of no more use to him – he’d treat them like unwanted children.

    Forms would constantly change. Again we were given no concrete explanation of where they came from. Later we would find out they were invented by he and his teacher. This is a good segue into costs…

    Costs: When one initially starts here, they are charged roughly $80 for two classes per week…which is a **** good price for NYC. But as students further their “training”, they are charged an extra monthly fee for each form learned, plus an additional first time fee (hung bao) for the classes. For example:
    Butterfly Swords: $200 to get into the class (one time fee)
    $100 for the weapons (when one can get their own for $50)
    $80/month for this class alone (on top of the regular $80 monthly tuition)
    And this is only for ONE extra class! If you want to take ANY other weapons, or ANY other open hand forms (other than the 3 that are taught regularly), the same, if not larger, fees will pile on top if these.
    One month, I looked at the schedule of classes he wanted me to take, and with these fees taken into account, the costs were well over $900. Many people there think their loyalty and perserverance will pay off, so they actually pay these amounts.

    Need I say more?

    $900/month for imitation Wu Shu (although that’s not what it was called) with no background history given, no questions answered, no proof of the teacher’s validity, and no explanation for any of his actions. How can someone of any moral standing look you in the eye and rob you of all that money and time?

    Absolute novices were given permission to take advanced weapons classes. Why? Because it brought in more money. Here you are standing next to some of the most uncoordinated and inexperienced students – while they’re swinging Kwan Do in the midst of an overcrowded gwoon!!! Unbelievable.

    It took a long time for me to research the validity of this school and a long time to make sure I was correct in my conclusions.
    After visiting many legitimate schools and now attending one for some time, I’ve come to learn many things: His kung fu is not legitimate. His instructors lack any and all credibility as competent martial arts instructors; he is blatantly deceiving his students. Worse, he is robbing them of not only of their hard earned money, but also, and more importantly, of their irreplaceable time.

    For those of you familiar with kung fu politics, you could probably guess which school/sifu I speak of. But for those who don’t, if you end up at a school that resembles the above mentioned, get out immediately.

    There are many good schools in NYC. Take your time, see all that is out there, and ASK QUESTIONS.

  2. #2
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    Jan 1970
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    good thing to hear you were smart enough to research and get out of that.
    im pretty sure my southern kung fu school is the real deal... hard to be 100 percent sure, because i have no experience previous to this, and other people have also been deceived... but i think it is.

    anyway, interesting post. thanks.

  3. #3
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    Good post Begby, it just goes to show, always do your research beforehand people, find out about the art and the instructors!!!!
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  4. #4
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    You should openly state which school this is. Otherwise you risk ruining the reputation of another school.

    What's to be afraid of?

  5. #5
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    Speaking of fraudulant schools! A while back someone posted alink to a page that discussed the legal issues that "Iron" KIm and his old school went through, does anyone know what tha link was?!
    _______________
    I'd tell you to go to hell, but I work there and don't want to see you everyday.

  6. #6
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    I'm not posting the name mainly for legal reasons.
    This school has utilized lawyers in the past (hint hint). Ya know? - Defamation.

    Shaolin Boxer: I don't think I run the risk of ruining another schools rep. If a school truly is legit and the students there are 100% sure that the style/teacher/school is legit, then no one needs to worry.
    But like I said above..........the real reason is legal.

  7. #7
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    Jan 1970
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    Sub. of Chicago - Downers Grove
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    Site went down

    Hi, That was the TMAN martial arts forum. Chung Moo took the forum over, and mass spammed it over and over and over again, until the host discontinued the service.

    As a memeber of that forum for years, I decided to host the conversations at royaldragon.4dw.com on my Dungeon forum after TMAN went down.

    I also have a Kung Fu forumwhere the OYD/CMQ topc is baned if you wish to discuss legit Kung Fu topics.

    Oh, by the way, begby, that school in NY sounds like a Chung moo Quan (also known as Oom Yung Doe) school, or one that broke away or is hideing thier identity. It may not be, but the MO is too similar in my humble opinion.

    What is the name of the school?
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
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    Sydney, Australia
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    1,400
    I fear i may have been defrauded also...
    You see ive been a student of a couple of kung fu systems and lately i study both Bagua and Tai Chi.
    You see my problem is simple, dispite dilligent effort in seeking out a teacher and trying my hardest to do everything im told...
    I have not been taught one chi blast or 'death touch' strike yet

    Im cut... I wanna see and learn some of that Matrix stuff but you think either of my sifu teach that noooooooooooooooooooo.
    Well maybe a tiny bit death touch
    Up and down, forward and backward, left and right, its all the same. All of this is done with the mind, not externaly.
    ------------------------------------
    Shaped dragon and looking monkey, sitting tiger and turning eagle.


    "I wonder how they would do against jon's no-tension fu. I bet they'd do REALLY WELL."
    - Huang Kai Vun

  9. #9
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    NYHC
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    Begby,

    It is good to see that you registered (finally). I don't think you have to worry about any legal ramifications. All you are doing is posting your opinions.

    I know what school you are talking about (Bo Law) and hold much the same opinion you do having formerly been a student there myself.

    I hold no animosity towards them but I do not feel that what is being taught there is legitimate either. I was there even longer then you, o I guess I mis-spent even more time then you did. Not to say it was a waste, as it got my lazy @$$ back into shape but my time could have been spent better elsewhere.

    In the past, postings have been made here regarding BL and FJP and I don't want to rehash that as I have found a true Sifu (IMHO) and moved on.

    The moral of the story I guess is that you need to do your homework and ask questions. If they don't, can't or are unwilling to answer that should throw up a flag.

  10. #10
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    Sub. of Chicago - Downers Grove
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    I know a guy

    That runs a school near the MGM studios that can and does teach both Matrix AND Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon skills. He's VERY expensive, and will require you to go through a 5 year course in fundementals to prepare you for those advanced skills, also very expensive. BUT, if you want the best you know it's going to cost ya.

    Here's an example of one of his senior studets demonstraiting the fame Cliff jump.

    www.artbell.com/mediafiles/olympic.mpg

    It takes years of training to perform this skill and walk away from it un harmed. But this skill and many others can be yours if you are willing to pay enough, and work hard.

    Royal Dragon
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  11. #11
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    NYHC
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    LOL!

    That is disturbing yet oddly interesting.

    I would settle for learning how to put my arm through the chest cavity of another ala Lo Meng in Kid with the Golden Arm.

    BTW, OT - there is a posibility of a Shaw brothers convention coming to NYC with Gordon Liu, Philip Kwok, Lo Meng among others. I'll try to find the link. But I digress.

  12. #12
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    OMG i didn't expect the guy to hit the ground! I thought it was cliff diving But it didn't show you him afterwards... I'm sure Jackie Chan could probably do that as well, the no. of times he's fallen from things

    david
    Peace is not the product of terror or fear.
    Peace is not the silence of cemeteries.
    Peace is not the silent result of violent repression.
    Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all.
    Peace is dynamism. Peace is generosity.
    It is right and it is duty.

  13. #13

    Thumbs down

    What does the word "Chung" mean?

    There is a Chung Moo Doe, 8 Arts Taught as 1!!!! school around the corner from my school, and I saw that they had started a Tai Chi class. I told my sifu, and he laughed and said they were teaching "Tai Chi Chung".

    Grand Ultimate Chung?

  14. #14
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    Sub. of Chicago - Downers Grove
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    It means differnt things depending on

    Thier mood at the moment.
    The Korean translation is True, Original or Genuine, but they use it to mean mind, palm strike or it's tacked on to the name of most of thier forms.

    I have a Chinese translation meaning "Empty" as well, so who knows.

    Tai Chi Chung is NOt real Taji, it's some thing they made up in the 80's to help lure more victums into thier little cult.

    They are not a real martial arts school, but the front for a dangerous & distructive cult.

    Any relevant info on them can be found on the follwing cult awareness site http://www.freedomofmind.com/

    specifically on page
    http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/chung/chung.asp
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  15. #15
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    Jan 2002
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    Playa Jobos, Puerto Rico
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    4,840
    Why cry over watered down spilled milk? Depending on one's standards, level, pretty much any school can be looked at as complete crap. I am so rarely impressed with MA out there, so much so -- as much as I love it -- I hate almost to be associated with it.

    I can't call what I do kung fu or martial arts, if all that other stuff claims that title.

    Better to spend more time looking for cow, then you know you're getting it pure.

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