To Use The Hip Or Not Use The Hip: That Is The Question.

[Fu-Pow]

Ok, but then any power that comes from the ground must be transferred through the hips somewhere along the line.

I don't think that this is correct. In external arts, yes. In internal arts, no. It's not that the hips don't move, but hips don't transfer the power, this is reserved for the waist. The area slightly above the hip.

Peace.

[denali]

Explain to me how the hips don't come in to play if they are moving.

[Fu-Pow]

Denali-

I can't. Read my original post. I'm trying to figure out how this works. All I know that is I have read and heard from my own teacher that I cannot use my hip in the same way that I do in the external arts. The hip may move but it doesn't transfer power in the same way, I think it has to do with the "kua" staying relaxed.

[denali]

Your original post implies that shaolin arts "fake" their power by using the hips. In real shaolin, the waist is more important than the hips. While I agree that internal arts power is slightly different, I disagree with your generalization of the "external" arts.

[Fu-Pow]

Actually I wasn't stating that at all. I was making the assumption that the readers already knew that internal and external arts have different ways of generating power. I never made any claim as to which one is better only that they are different.

There are Yang style Taiji (as well as Chen stylists) who fake understanding of the internal method of power generation by using the external method. I believe that this is much easier to do in the Yang style then the Chen style because the footwork is closer to external arts like Shaolin in Yang style.

Now, let me get this straight. You propose that there is no difference in how power is generated?

[denali]

Of course it's different. Read my last post.

I just think that your generalization of shaolin using the hips too much is incorrect. The waist is very important in shaolin.

Personally, I think Yang footwork is very different from shaolin. Chen postures are more similar to shaolin. But hey, that's just me.

[Fu-Pow]

I just think that your generalization of shaolin using the hips too much is incorrect.

I have come to the conclusion that you don't know how to read.

I never said that anywhere.

Good luck with your illiteracy.....

[Scarletmantis]

Fu POw you are rude. You are also wrong. Power from the ground dosen't magically jump from the ground to the waist. It travels through the legs AND hips before it gets to the waist. I thought you were posing genuine questions because you wanted to learn something, but dropping insults when someone disagrees with you shows that your mind is not open (just like your hip joints). Good luck with your trolling.

[denali]

hehe.
Anyway, I'm not here to get in a squabble. I'd rather invest my time in real life. We can disagree and leave it at that, or we can discuss. Either way I don't care.

But you said, and I quote, "In both internal and external MAs the power originates from the ground but in Shaolin derived MA's the power is transfered through turning or snapping the hip. In internal MA's the hip barely moves and the waist drives the power."

I disagree with that. I'm not afraid of being wrong, but I would prefer an intelligent conversation instead of name calling.

[Fu-Pow]

Oops .... ....sorry about that Denali....that was uncalled for.....sometimes I can be rather moody and I have a silver tongue.......Apparently, something didn't work quite right with the forum.

I read your post and responded when I was in a bad mood and after a few minutes I reconsidered my post and erased it . For some reason it didn't get erased. Perhaps I closed my browser before the action could take place.

Anyways, again sorry. Obviously you know how to read.

The point I was trying to make is that I never stated that the Shaolin uses the hip "too much." Only that the power generation is different and the power transfers differently.

I study CLF and Chen Taiji and I am constantly reprimanded by my Taiji teacher for using the hip when I should be using the waist. That is what originally spurred my post.

You shouldn't be so touchy about practicing an external style (Hung Ga right?) it is just a different way of doing things.

After reading the intro to Tim Cartmell's Effortless combat throws I have a new outlook on mechanics.

Imagine that the body is composed of several large springs the spine, the chest, the legs and the arms. These are the 5 bows they talk about in Taiji. Elastic energy can be stored in the springs. The goal in Taiji is maintain the spring.

Located in the center of the springs is a heavy sphere aka the Dan Tien .

The springs are always under the compression of gravity and the heavy ball dictates where the line of gravity falls. Gravity does not provide much in the way of compression, however, the springs can also be under external compression as in from an opponent.

In order to generate power in Taiji the spring must become compressed and then snap back. This is under the control of the Dan Tien which directs the force into the spring and then controls where and when it snaps back.

If the body becomes too slack it is like the spring being made of something non-elastic like rope. It won't compress, it will simply collapse. If the body becomes too rigid it is like the springs becoming too stiff it will never compress.

This is of course and over simplification there are other factors to consider like bones, peripheral muscle, breathing, chi etc. But perhaps a good starting point?

[denali]

No worries Fu-Pow. Nothing personal..
Yes I do study Hung Gar mostly, but I have been learning some Yang taiji as well for the past 9 months or so. I definitely agree that the power is transferred differently, the movement is often quite different, but not always. I'm just saying that the waist is also very important in shaolin. Some internal artists talk like the waist is an internal-only concept.

Anyway, I find that the footwork and the different weighting in taiji stances seem to force you to use the waist differently. In taiji, it seems that you sometimes step out first and then use the waist after your hips are already aligned. While in shaolin the hips and waist sometimes turn at the same time.. It all depends on the movement and stance though. .
Maybe the difference isn't actually in using the hips *or* the waist, it's more about how you link them together. Just a thought..

[Stacey]

I used to be perplexed by this as well.


Lets use an x and y axis. Y represents the legs pushing up and down. x represents the waist (hits, kwa) turning back and forth.

Then you have the forward movement of the whole body.

I beleive Fu Pow is saying that in Internal arts you are going back and forth thinking of the dan tien as it lies vertically on the y axis.

He seems to beleive that by turning on the x axis you are cheating.

I believe all three components are needed for the internals. Some methods of power generatoin (perhaps ones Fu Pow has been exposed to) require a different ratio of x and y (waist to legs)

For balanced hitting you need at least some of the other one. Just twising karate style is ok, but why neglect the legs? Just going at an upward angle into the bow stance is also lacking.

[Scarletmantis]

I think most of us recognized what he was trying to say, but he is still incorrect. The only reason I even bothered arguing with him was that I didn't want him passing on his misinterpretation of whatever his teacher showed him to the inexperienced students. If he wants to practice incorrectly and argue with his seniors in order to protect his ego, fine. But, there are serious students here who are interested in learning something. I would hate to see someone rob themselves of the power that proper internal body mechanics can generate, just so they can appeal to a false esthetic.

[Nexus]

When the classics says movements come from the waist they mean movements come from the hips ie. the ingrinal grooves. This is the sexual area of the body and where the most power in the body is generated from.

[Zantesuken]

hmmmm all goodie good explanations! mine's gonna be nearly the same but yeah here goes. this was one of my recent thinking things while pushing hands.

Often hip power and everything you see people snapping their hips. while this is a way to generate power it's not exactly the corect way. Here's where i may come under fire.

When you turn during push hands, your feet don't turn. your head doesn't turn. you HIPS DO NOT TURN. it is your spine that turns. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but if you do it concentrate on your spine and going forward. if you can feel your spine rotating(or rather the base of it) then your hips are turning to. i used to be this way in that i would try to twist it hard and fast and of course ppl do that and it makes noise and your fist goes fast and does have power but it's the power of your back..

basically that's it. just concenrate on the spine and feel it turn rather than your hips. because if your spine turns and your body squares (aligns) then you should know your hips automatically turn with your spine.

that's why most tai chi masters (i can't speak for all) lean a slight bit forward. because it's their spine that gives them the power to push.

muhahaha now i can outpush my grandma! (i know it sounds sick but she's like 20 years tai chi practioner and not even this 6'3 , 250 lbs white guy could push her over!! haha!

i guess it comes down to your understanding. if something's not working for you then you gotta re-think how you do it and why someone else can do it and you can't. that's how i always get my stuff!