I got a question...

[Ka]

Sure, Absolutely,
What I am trying to allude to that its often experience (whether that be from getting out and dirty or by a comphensive training) in various situations(I am not just talking about fighting here) that require that extra bit of grit/heart/intent to see it to the end.

If I start talk about acquiring schaemata for situations would that be losing the plot abit or are you all still with me?

Anyway Like I said my whole original defenition of MA was for the small to overcome the large in any situation.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

However over-used the analogy, the mother lifting the auto to rescue her child scenario is still valid.. Harness that level of "intent" and size is of no concern..

There are too many variables to make a reasonable assertion for this question.. One's ability to absorb attacks is as important as the ability to issue an attack.. In my past training, we would put a towel over a fighter's head, strike him at various places (including the head), pull the towel off and see if they could weather another attack.. If not, they weren't permitted to fight full-contact..

All things being equal, skill, experience, intent, and plain toughness.. the larger fighter has the advantage of size, the smaller fighter has bigger targets to hit.. Sifu says, "first mistake is to worry about it at all".. what i think he means is that to consider that size is a major factor, is to empower it to be so.. He says "just do what you do, too much worry, not enough do"..

For those that can't (won't) accept the higher levels referred to by others like Bamboo Leaf, remember.. until man invented the microscope no one believed that tiny germs could kill people.. (size didn't matter).. that those higher levels exist is fact, that some can't accept that fact does not change it..

In the end, size does matter.. but, it is the size of your belief in youself, the size of your willingness to train, the size of your capacity to accept the less tangible aspects of the Being you are..
the size of your spirit..

Just another perspective from the far-side.. be well..

[Kaitain(UK)]

Blacktaoist and Bamboo Leaf - the problem is that you cannot expect people to understand the metaphysical stuff even if they have experienced it. I've experienced it and I still don't relate it to my own training. It's not fair to patronize people for putting forward their own ideas that don't encompass your understanding of chi and so on - and it's a fair point to expect physical explanations for power generation (which is an issue aside from chi manipulation). In my experience, everything that at somepoint seemed mystical to me in my training eventually has an easy explanation based on my physical understanding. (explain to a complete beginner the idea of rooting - he sees your lips move but he cannot being to understand it)

FWIW my Sifu (who does the Chi manipulation stuff as well - although not in the 'chi bolt from 20 foot' school of thought, he tends to work at contact range) says exactly the same as some of the guys on here - the bigger you are the more potential energy you have. But he also argues that after a point it's irrelevant as the level of power a skilled practitioner can generate is sufficient to nail anyone. In straight Peng pushing I am stronger than him (8 inches height and about 80 pounds larger) - but that's in a straight tendon-building exercise of force against force. As soon as skill becomes involved I never get the opportunity to utilise that power.

I also agree with the point that someone who is more powerful than you is only an issue if you engage in a force-against-force fight - which is sometimes unavoidable if the opponent is more skillful and chooses to take you there.

My last point is something of a challenge (of ideals) to Bamboo Leaf - you advocate/believe (as far as I understand you) in the use of 4 ounces, the Yin route to victory. That's fine for an entry in my system but there's a point where we switch to Yang and utilise all of our power to end the situation - at which point power capacity is important. Clearly this is an idealistic difference in styles - but it doesn't make either of us wrong.

And to answer the original question - I wouldn't do anything different - get contact (if necessary) and hit them. The only truly daunting opponent is the one with more skill - anything else is irrelevant (aside from guns, knives, lots of friends etc )

[Ray Pina]

"My begining take on the whole MA study was to cultivate the ability of a smaller person (ie me) to overcome bigger stronger adverseries. "


One word: Technique.

You can intent till the cows come home and shoot chi out your a$$ to the moon, without good technique the small will never overcome the large. How big are you? The biggest? How fast are you? The fastest?

What about the other guy? He doesn't have the ability to call on inherent strenght at the time of need? Never dove for that extra three yards to cross the enzone? Never got that cup of coffeee to pull the all nighter to get his work in on time?

Everyone has that ablity in them and calls it out from time to time. Yes, we specialize in that. But without technique, you are playing variables, rolling the dice, double or nothing.

Poeple talk yielding this and yielding that, and then stand there pushing at each other with force. Or, "relax", "relax", "relax", and shove the unexpecting guy across the room. Or train technique, and then I go to look at matches and see kick boxing, no different between Tae Kwon Do, Karate, or Hung Gar.

Technique is the the only answer. You must have it, or you'll never beat the bigger/younger/stronger man. You do not need technique to beat the 5 year old -- or very stupid, or the very bad.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Think of it like this,

If you have the thought of using force in your mind you will. some one who is very good can tell this and use it.

there is no yin or yang, they are not separate but in a dynamic balance.

The body and mind are in balance, able to respond to out side changes with the ability to change. As soon as you use force or even think of it your out of balance. At the first touch you must know this.

The other half is using consciousness to direct your actions instead of trained reflexes. This means that the mind is totally involved from the beginning to the end and beyond the movement. Since you are not using LI “force” Your movements are flexible and lite this allows you to be able to change and follow.

this is also why sung “relax” is key I mean real sung. Both in mind and body. No hared points in the body no idea of force in the mind.


The other way, the way that most people use I believe is a kind of feed back system. The action is preformed and corrected based on the result.

The problem with this is that once the action is started it cannot be changed; the mind is waiting to see what happened and then will correct. This way is slow compared to some one who can use the shen/ and yi.

This is also why to some extent the ability to gen. Force may not be as important as the ability to listen. It really depends on how and what your art is based on your level, understanding and ability. a teacher is key in this.




Every ones thoughts are valid to their own experience. If I sound like I am patronizing, please it’s not my intent. There are many here with far more experience and understanding then me.

This ability and understanding is what I seek in my own practice, I don’t know if it makes one a better fighter or not, only that it is the direction of my own journey.

i like it here we walk a road that is not easy, we all help each other along the way.

david

[Ray Pina]

I agree 100% with everything you just said. Bamboo, I know that you know.

PS Grand Taoism, I have a Toaist riddle for you:

Why seek coal, when there is a doimand in your pocket?

[Kaitain(UK)]

I guess what I'm getting it is that there is a point where you stop listening and explode

As I stick and get past my opponents outer defence there is a point where I feel a 'trigger' - I know it's right to issue energy at this point. This usually happens as soon as I've stuck to my opponent - and it's thoughtless, there's no time to think about what I'm doing, it just happens...

Not sure if that helps clarify what I'm getting at

[blacktaoist]

Kaitain(UK)It's not fair to patronize people for putting forward their own ideas that don't encompass your understanding of chi and so on -

BT)I Don't understand the point you are trying to make, I never patronize anyone on this web page. I just gave my own opinion and advise to bamboo leaf thats all nothing more, People are free to have belief in their methods of training martail arts, I can careless I know what works for me , so that what matters too me.

Kaitain(UK)and it's a fair point to expect physical explanations for power generation (which is an issue aside from chi manipulation).

BT)If anybody on KFO gives a physical physical explanations for power generation or even martial techniques I'm one of them. So your post reply to me in my opinion is aimless. Because I don't definition or interpret my way of training the internal martial arts in a esoteric way, But I do have a deep understanding of energy theory and cultivation methods that was taught to me.

Most Guys up here don't have any understanding of Metaphysical methods and Theorys, I knew this from the first few post replys, Most didn't know what bamboo leaf was talking about.

So I see nothing wrong in telling bamboo leaf to keep his interpretations sample, I don't this as a form of patronize any one. After all most on KFO are novice.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is not my policy to advise others, only to offer my own understanding and experiences.. to offer support whenever someone else has similar offerings, or gives me cause to expand my own experiences..

In the matter of "technique", i would agree.. with a simple qualification.. Technique is not limited to form, execution, or style.. "Technique", by my own accounting, is the methodology with which one approaches the totality of their chosen path.. Too few people are willing to invest the time, dedication and loss to reap the benefits of the depths of Tai Chi.. Too many others are too eager to discount experiences they haven't personally attained.. I, personally, am eager to listen to all opinions.. sort out those that have merit according to my current ability to comprehend, and save the others in case they mature into valuable lessons later..

Kudos to Mr. Leaf, (David).. an excellent observation regarding the Yin/Yang relationship, dynamic and interdependent.. never exclusive.. Respectful bows to ALL, we have an opportunity to expand the realization of Tai Chi through this media.. Mutual respect could be quite helpful.. even the novice can benefit from exposure to differing opinions, to more experienced insights..

Be well..

[Nexus]

Children have great intent. Watch them. Learn.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Nexus
Children have great intent. Watch them. Learn.

Agreed, watching my Son grow to his current age has given me a new understanding of intent and internal concepts.
And a good renewed respect for it.

Now I understand what my Sifu means when she sez that Tai Chi is supposed to make us like a small child again.

[blacktaoist]

There are more then one definition for the word advice, suggestion, opinion, suggest ect.... just like some one on KFO may interpret your statement Here as advice:

TaiChiBob-only to offer my own understanding and experiences to offer support whenever someone else has similar offerings, or gives me cause to expand my own experiences

Just My perspective from the world of interpretation be well.

[Kaitain(UK)]

After the initial paragraph it was just a general reply. I should have made that clear in the post. I rarely get to read your posts actually as they seem to be rarer than rocking horse s.hit

Finally - Leaf did not differentiate between metaphysical manipulation through contact and using physical technique. His original post seemed to imply that they were the same thing (I guess you could argue that that's what internalising the art actually is).

My apologies if you feel misrepresented

Aside from that I'd like to move to the discussion on the Yin/Yang relationship:

Leaf - you say Yin/Yang are in constant balance, but can you define what you mean? There are so many different levels and layers of this relationship that I could use a little more clarity to be clear. (To me it's a bit of a truism.)

i.e. If I strike someone it could be said that the part of me that's striking is 99% Yang 1% Yin - but equally the point furthest from where I release the energy is 1% Yang 99% Yin. I'm in balance but I'm also at extremes. So when I move from sticking to striking it's not a switch of energy, but an increase of the Yang portion of that energy with a corresponding increase of Yin somewhere else. (This is all getting a bit too theoretical for my liking - sorry)

It's more like a sine wave than a 0/1 relationship. Not sure if that's what you mean

[blacktaoist]

Kaitain(UK)My apologies Now that you explain, I know where you are coming from.

[bamboo_ leaf]

the idea of striking already puts you out of balance. For me TC is an art that strives to maintain a dynamic balance. There is no separation in yin and yang.

This means the one attacking or striking is already out, by changing and adjusting to their out of balance condition they end up either thrown out, or something broken. It depends on how much force they use and the speed of the change.

We can talk of them as separate, but really they are not, what happens is that the other can not change when the echo returns they are carried away by their own sound. Its like throwing a ball as hard as you can not expecting it to bounce back or pull you with it. When it dose if you can’t handle it then you have a problem.




The out of balance starts with the intent to strike, with the fist touch you must know this otherwise it’s to late. the higher the level they can sense the intent befor the action. I think people see high level people doing things and feel like they are using there own power, in some cases this may be true but for the most part it’s the ability to induce the other to be out of balance both in mind and body.

This really is very hard, takes a long time IMO and not many that I have met can really do it. Why ?

I think the temptation to do something is to great. They want to feel and use the power. This is really different then seeking stillness and emptiness inside. They say the simplest is often the most hardest, I concur.

Some one mentioned the size of YCF. Yes he was big, but if his art was only based on his size and strength all would know it, who would follow ? once people touched him they knew something was very differnt.



None of what I say makes anyone invincible or the greatest fighter, but I find it dose give one a very different perspective and reason for training. Yes, you must be able to demonstrate your understanding though ability of use. Other wise its just empty words. been slamed a few times because its what i follow, at that time my level wasn't quite there. its better now but still a very long way to go.

i have been at this for awhile, the people that i have met who i would say have this ability are really very few.


david