Are traditional MA methods useless?

[red_fists]

Way too quiet here, let's crank up some controversial Discussions.

Many People say that TMA and their Training is useless, inefficient and non-realistic.

Stories are many where one Guy learned a system decided to change the Training to make it more effective/realistic.

Now here is my view:
TMA train in a certain way for reasons
that are not always known to young and inexperienced Students.

While I agree that some improvements can be made.
At the same time I doubt that those training methods would have survived or that all the masters/good fighers of a style trained differently from their students.
Unless the MC Dojo was invented a few centuries ago and was the norm in TMA.
Or could it be that those People that changed training method/styles aspects maybe failed to see the point of what was taught.

There are many great and known Masters that only trained in traditional methods, but still became great Fighters.
I am aware that not everything I do & did in my training is geared towards actual fighting, but a lot of the training is done to further certain aspects of the Body, Mind & Skills.
If I have doubts about my training I ask my Sfu, who usually gives me an eye-opening answer about training aspects.

So, pls, tell me honestly why traditional methods are sooo bad.

I wanna hear arguments that go way beyond "Drills are unrealistic".
Take the methods apart and analyze them and than tell me what is wrong.

Also tell me what the goals are for the traditional methods. like Push Hands, Sparring Hands, Drills, Meditation, Qi-Gong, etc.

[scotty1]

Couldn't tell you why trad training methods are so bad, as I don't think they are. I think things like bag and pad work are essential, and neglected sometimes. As far as two man drills etc. then I always thought that the idea was to build muscle memory and reactions. Which is great, but without sparring pretty useless IMHO.

I think the reason that trad methods get such a bad rep. is because you see them being executed by weak men and women in a non-realistic fashion much of the time. Two man drills where you think you are going to get hit are a different animal to when you are partnered with somebody that actually aims off to 'help' the execution of the parry, block etc.

So trad methods executed hard, realistically, fast and many, many times I think are effective.

[Merryprankster]

Red,

You forgot the part where traditional training involved beating the daylights out of each other a LOT, taking challenges, etc.

And that's where people screw it up. They forget the part of TMA that involved blood. Those masters didn't get good by just doing forms or line drills.

[red_fists]

‚l‚o.

Nope, nothing forgotten.

Many TMA schools I know train those, not sure about the US though.

But than my Sifu and Sensei have always gotten rather physical on us as well.

Wish it wasn't maybe than my back wouldn't be buggered from a wrongly executed kick done by a fellow student, plus, a few other injuries I picked up along the way.

Nope, my back just told me about incoming rain, nothing forgotten.

[red_fists]

Memory going.

Also, since TMA don't train hard and hit each other, how come that the Aikido Dojo which we rent sports NEW Blood stains every Week.

Peace.

[Merryprankster]

Because YOUR instructors didn't forget that

[dezhen2001]

interesting thread guys

To me there are many different 'levels' in TMA training. The first and most important is health. Without that, how can you fight? Depending on your lifestyle, it may take a while to get even healthy. This is where things like Qigong come in to play, as that's what they are for: hard or soft qigong.

Then you have to build the correct foundation and body mechanics as well as attitude. This is usually done by forms training and takes a long time to develop. I mean i only know about Wing Chun and Taijiquan, but the foundation forms in each case (SLT and Lao Jia) are practised for a long time before moving on to the next.

Next you move on to partner work, which usually consists of some form of drill. This is where you learn to apply the principles and postures/movements you have learned in the forms. Again, to use everything correctly can take a long time. Of course, these are either with a coperative opponent or a resisting oppponent so you learn various things.

sparring comes after you know how to correctly apply principles and techniques. I know form my own experience before that rushing in to this is a big mistake (was for me anyway). The use of principles and attitude that has been developed through everything else should shine through here. Working first within your own system and then training with other styles/systems helps you understand more about your own style, and developresponses to other systems attitudes etc.

There are also other elements as well as these to consider: weapons training (teaching you how to use power and footwork even more), conditioning and the like.


Now, that's just what i think of course, but different schools do each thing to various degrees. Theres nothing like getting together with like-minded buddies and having a bit of a Ruck But if you do that too early and can't apply your skill properly, that's when you just get beat up. Or you learn how to defend but you're still not using the skill the correct way.
For me, i'd much rather spend a long time developing my foundation through doing SLT and chi sau before worrying about 'fighting'. That way i can apply the skill properly. Who said how long it would take to be able to use it to 'fight' anyway?

just my thoughts,
david

[MA fanatic]

OK I'll spice things up.

Like anything in life, martial arts should be updated. You say that many masters have used ancient TMA training and became great fighters. Who? Where did they fight? When did they fight (what year?)? Who did they fight? Did they fight other masters who have used the same outdated training techniques? Most likely they did. How would a master who uses TMA training techniques fair against a master who spends one year tranining with modern day training approaches, nutrition guides, modern machinery, blood monitoring, weight monitoring, modern supplements geared for peak performance, sport psychologists, weight trainers, pro coaches, etc. etc. The TMA guys, despite the popular opinion on this thread, would lose. I keep reading interviews with boxers of the 30s, 40s, and 50s, who say that due to modern day advances in training and nuetrition, the fighters of today are much quicker, more technical, and all around better athletes. If you look at the old training methods, you will see that they are basically similar to some of the modern training approaches, except the modern drills, machines, and diets are more accurate, better researched, and designed to fit the individual's needs. Just look at other sports. Look at gymnasts of the 50s and compare them to gymnasts now. Look at the inovative techniques in other sports, baseball, ice skating, basketball, boxing, wrestling, TKD, etc. etc. etc. Why should martial arts be any different. I think somewhere down the line MAs have become a religion to some. People began following masters, no questions asked. Pupils began accepting what the masters say as the truth. I recently read an interview in BB Magazine with a Shaoline Monk living in NY. The guys tried to explain why weight training will hinder your speed. Half the information (actually 75% of it) was plain wrong. Anyone who has any knowledge of weight training and physiology would agree. Yet, I'm sure his students follow his every word. I think if TMA are to continue existing, they should examine their training techniques and see what the world has to offer in terms of modern training. Let me ask you this....WOULD YOU GO TO A DOCTOR WHO HAD NOT GOTTEN ANY UPDATED TRAINING SINCE THE 60S WHEN HE/SHE FIRST FINISHED THEIR MEDICAL RESEDENCY? NO YOU WONT.
MA fanatic

[Merryprankster]

Stop talking SENSE MA Fanatic!!!

[MA fanatic]

I think I should add that combat oriented schools (San Shoue, Kyokushinkai karate, WTF TKD, BJJ, JUDO, Luta Livre, Sambo, Muay Thai, Submission Wrestling, Sabaki, Shidokan, etc. etc.) have already incorporated modern training techniques. Those schools who's schools compete against other arts in full contact events (or athletic competitions such as Olympic TKD sport) have already adopted modern training approaches simply because traditional conditioning and drills were not enough. Keep in mind that should masters of yesterday be alive today, they to, would have researched new training. All were inovators, just didn't have the same exposure as we do in modern times.
MA fanatic

[dezhen2001]

each generation of people who learns a martial art updates it you add your own experiences to the previous ones.

why do you say that techniques are outdated? the human body hasn't changed that much in a long,long time...

Why exactly would the TMA lose? it depends on the person as much as the skills they have. Not all fights are documented like on the UFC and Olympics or whatever. Look at bikers for example: i'm sure they are some real tough sob but they don't have a 'fight record'. People who need to, know who has fought who, that's all that matters.

As for following a Shaolin Monk: THAT'S religion!

Weight training, don't know about that, but my teacher and his etc. have gotten on fine without it at all.

Also: why can't you seem to accept Chinese principles and 'science' for want of a better word? They have their own principles and theories just like Western training does. They also achieve results.

david

[Daredevil]

In one word, are traditional martial arts training methods useless ; no.

But this is an interesting topic and one I've spent wondering about sometimes during my interest in the martial arts. Lately, I've been less concerned with this, considering I have found a great teacher.

What was said about the blood part of the training is exactly right. That is necessary and it is a part of traditional training, however, the problem with many schools these days is a bit more complicated ... and this my own theory about it, which may be a bit skewed since I come from an internal art and a Baji background -- Baji being rarely transmitted, carefully taught and rather hard to grasp. However, I definately think this line of thinking can be applied to many styles.

A lot of traditional training was and still is slow, requiring great patience. You're not given all the relevant training methods on day one, nor indeed on day 300. Why is it slow? Well, perhaps the way sifu's teach was motivated by making sure students were worthy, but beyond that there is the aspect of generating force. It takes time to develop the jing of many styles, to really embody the power generation mechanics.

Before that is done, all training in other methods is pretty much useless because you don't have the power to use it. Extremely put why spar, when you don't even have the correct understanding of generating force?

Now, please note I'm not advocating no sparring until five years .. indeed, being exposed to training methods beforehand can be helpful in the view of your overall skill development. I'm just saying people should have their priorities straight. If what you need to do is work on your punching mechanics, that's what you need to do.

So, the problem with styles being watered down is with students starting to teach before they have really embodied the style's essence or learned all the relevant training methods, which I feel was especially likely when the traditional arts were being transported to the western world (the foreigners and indeed orientals who first came here, perhaps possessing only a little of the actual skill, started teaching). Sure, back in wherever the art came from, your sifu could have had you teach the beginning students ; show them the basics that they'd have to work on for a long time. This does not mean you're a ready teacher, or truly understand the art with body-knowledge.

Does that make sense? I think it does.

Later,

[JusticeZero]

All I see from people trying to make their training "more realistic" is attempts to make their art more like boxing. Kicks? No thanks.. Locks? Too impractical.. Throws? No thank you.. Nerve cavity techniques? What voodoo! Deep stances for power generation? Bah! Bob and weave and bounce on yer toes! Close yer fists like a real man, boy!
....Why didn't they just go to a boxing gym to begin with?? I personally consider boxing to be rather ineffective for various reasons, but apparently, the only techniques people can understand these days are from it; why else would everything that wasn't a jab, cross, or hook be labelled flashy and evil?

[Repulsive Monkey]

The word Fanatic as any dictionary will let you know means imbalanced fervour, i.e. someone who hasn't got a good understanding. Again MA FAnatic all you do is rant in a 1-dimensional manner, and slate other arts especially ones which I feel you have little knowledge and experience of, and make amazing presumptions which trip you up. Do you realize that you're not convincing anyone but yourself?

Nothing you have said seems like a balanced statement. Nothing you have said sounds convincing, in fact the only thing that most people will be convinced off is your lack of underdstanding I feel.

Modern methods have their use as much as traditional. Now thats a balanced statement ok? When you slate traditional methods which I feel you have done in an amazingly generalized way (which is exceptable if you've experienced them all enough to put yourself in that position, fair enough) people with experience will look down upon your statements not out of ignorance or eliteism etc, but out of the pure knowledge that their years of experience has paid off and they know your statements to be lacking. From what you've said before it sounds like that aswell as teachers moving away from you vicinity, you have not bothered to stick around long enough to get the real gems of their teachings. Hence the over-tired and labourious "Cross-training is better than a single art" rant. Why do you take this line always??

[dezhen2001]

Boxing is effective - punch meets face=knock out I've traine din it for many years and it's very difficult to do also.

But internal training is very different and requires a long time to grasp. how can you remain relaxed and balanced to generate jing/ging? How can you remain calm and relaxed but still have a strong posture? it's really hard and really frustrates me. I know i just need to train more, so am happy to let it happen. I could go theother way of ocurse and just use strength. It works, but against someone stronger i'm a gonner. It's also not using the skill properly, so why do it wrong? I would rather train to be correct, no matter how long it takes

david