Are traditional MA methods useless?

[red_fists]

Here are some things I observed at my Kwoon in regards to newcomers.

We have a few ex-external Guys traning with us, in the beginning they were awfully stiff and tried to "muscle" all the movements.
It usually takes them about 2~3 months to get over that and START to relax and loose their ego.

Also lot of the muscle bound Guys really struggle with our slow forms execution and standing meditation.
And are often out of breath, sweating at the end of those.

Most of our new students mention rubbery/shaking legs the Day after training and this usually disappears after about 1 month, at which time most realise that their Legs/Thighs have grown some muscle and have firmed up.

After about 1yr most students have greatly increased in flexibility, lung capacity and are more relaxed and stress free.
Most of our students do not practice any form of sport activity besides TCC.

Just some observations, to show some differences.

[Merryprankster]

dehzen;

Nope--I didn't think you thought the demonstrations were end all be all. We're working from different frameworks of understanding... THAT is just fine. Just so long as we both understand we're talking about the same thing in different terms. The problem, I find, comes when nobody is willing to discuss "what do you mean when you say..." That's where it starts getting ugly. Different explanations work for different people...but when they start saying something like "it's NOT proper mechanics and structure it's (insert word here), THEN, I start taking issue."

I will agree that good training methods produce results. I've yet to see a school that does the same exercises the same way as any other, but that doesn't mean it's bad training

Red_Fist,

What you are describing isn't internal vs external. It's good vs bad. The biggest problem we have with brand new people in BJJ is learning to relax. They want to POUND AND FLAIL like maniacs rather than "flow wid de go," as Rickson once said.

That same problem extends to boxing--people who muscle their punches don't punch as hard and wear themselves out immediately. New guys do it all the time. Loose=speed and speed + structure= power. People who try to muscle MT kicks rather than just letting them happen experience the same problem.

And it extends to wrestling--the "fish," will flop around...do ANYTHING that somehow seems appropriate and it's all stiff and knees and elbows. UGH. You always get hurt going live with the beginners

Ever seen a stiff Judoka? They usually get thrown a lot and get tired REALLY fast.

The rest of what you describe is simply "getting used to new stresses." A large weightlifter hasn't been training to do static stances or standing meditation and is going to have problems with it. It's called "specificity." Give a marathoner a sprinter's workout and he'll be having the same problem, and vice versa. My mat endurance didn't transfer over to boxing, and vice versa.

Basically, being relaxed is about energy management--as well as speed and fluidity.

A powerlifter won't run a marathon with anything resembling a decent time, and the marathoner probably can't deadlift 400 lbs for reps. Specificity of training. They can't stand in those stances because they haven't trained for it.

Now, get somebody who does wall sits all the time in there and I bet you see a much quicker adaptation!

[MA fanatic]

Someone, I believe it was MP, mentioned 'critical thinking.' Another individual mentioned questioning the sifu. Should we as students question our instructors and the level of instruction. In modern day, YES OF COURSE. Should teachers, who claim to be an authority on the subject they teach be open to students asking, probing, inquiring and challenging? SURE. THEY HAVE TO BE. I recently spoke to a friend of mine who had been training under a local Hapkido master for many years. The Hapkido master is pretty good, but certain techniques he stresses as "highly effective" have a small possibility of working. I showed my friend how quickly these techniques may fail. I actually had him, and other blackbelts from that school attempt various joint manipulations on me which could be easily defended against. Yet, all still said that "master would not teach us something he thinks will not work." NO ONE is saying to be RUDE. RESPECT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. That master could truly believe that what he teaches is the absolute truth. He is not a bad person or a con artist (in a business where there are more cons than decent teachers). But, he is a human being who could be wrong. I was lucky, and still continue to be lucky, that all my instructors encouraged student's critical thinking. Most, even enjoyed debating effectiveness of techniques, training drills, training equipment, and even which fighter is most likely to win a given NHB match. Think of it this way; if we live in an age when we can question our doctor's treatment, often seeking second opinions, why can't we question our Sifu? We should, and it should be permitted. I would stay far away from any master, sifu, sabunim, sensei, guru, etc. etc. who requests blind loyalty.
MA fanatic

[scotty1]

My teacher said to us the other day when he was showing us some self defense moves, something along the lines of this:


"I'll show you these techniques, which I have used in the past successfully, but I am not saying that they will work 100% of the time, and you should think about them yourself.
I am not telling you 'if you do this this will happen'. Always think to yourself 'what if this doesn't work, what position am I left in?'

Good advice I think.

[dezhen2001]

hey Scotty, MA Fanatic and MP: good advice guys. But i don't think everyone blindly follows their teacher - i know i am expected to question whatever he says and work things out on my own. I feel bad for people who don't have that ability within themselves. I always 'prepare for the worst, but hope for the best' in everything i do, not just MA training

MP: you made a good point about 'specificity' <--- didn't know that was an actual word but there ya go

Maybe that's where the difference lies between training methods? Training posture and stances are something you're going to use every time you practise martial arts. So i was just thinking about weight training... Why do you need to train that if you're not actually doing anything that resembles it in actual martial arts? Is that very good 'specificity'? I'm fumbling for words again...

anyway, i need to think what i mean and then post properly,
david

[Merryprankster]

dz--

About weight training--you don't NEED to do it. The reality though, is that beyond a certain point, you aren't going to get any stronger without resistance work--whether it's chunks of iron or stone or farmwork.

Now, that doesn't matter much to most of us. I'm as strong as I'm going to get from boxing/wrestling/BJJ. I'm not going to get any stronger, no matter how many push ups I do, I'm not actually going to be able to physically move more weight.

Now, the reason that high level athletes engage in weight training is because they are looking for an edge--same reason they are in very good shape. I could be the most highly skilled Judoka in the world and lose tournaments because I can't go the distance or I'm just not strong enough to pull it off.

Plus, you have the issue of diminishing returns. Realistically, is a 20 year practitioner of Judo going to get THAT much better with his or her technique? He'll learn some fine tuning, and work to improve, but is practicing the same thing for 3 hours going to issue the same rate of return as it did when he was only a 2 year practicioner? I'm guessing not. So he can afford to invest some time in weights.

Now me... I'm just a purple belt. I've got, best case scenario, around another 4 years before I get my black in BJJ. Time constraints set in--do I increase my returns by working on my game 5 days a week or lifting 2 of those and training 3? I think it's pretty obvious

The other thing is that getting stronger is beneficial across the board, however. Marathoners today weight train--not as much as an olympic weight lifter, but the mild improvement in strength translates into slightly better times.

Another example, and more relevant, might be the throwing events. These are VERY skill-oriented events...but there is a real limit to how strong you are going to get throwing an impliment. In order to generate more force than your optimum level of technique allows NOW, you have to get stronger, and that means resistance training of some sort.

[MA fanatic]

Merryprankster: Just a purple belt? For bjj that pretty darn good. Who do you train under? It takes most guys about 3 years of regular deligent practice and none stop sparring to reach blue belt. Most other arts hand out blackbelts while bjj guys still try to earn a blue. Purple is very high, considering. I live in a city with close to a hundred martial arts schools, only several teach legit (under qualified instructors) grappling (shooto, bjj, pancration and catch as catch can wrestling). I think there are only 3 or 4 purple belts in bjj in the entire state. There are abot 3 black belts that I know of. Actually, I'm pretty sure there are 3 bjj black belts total in IL. And, those guys are good with experience in sport bjj, no gi grappling, and nhb. Good for you.

MA fanatic

[Merryprankster]

MA Fanatic,

I'm a Purple under Lloyd Irvin.

3 years of constant practice? That seems excessive. I know many 2-3 year whites but they had erratic attendance. I know that different instructors have different standards for belts though.

However, I've found our belt ranks seem to hold up at tournaments, so I guess it doesn't matter much, eh?

[omegapoint]

Hmm, the old MAs forum standard: What is the usefulness of traditional m.a. training (versus modern martial sport training)?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I have trained both ways my entire life, but recently I have been leaning in the traditionalists direction. Then again I lift weights, do plyometrics, run wind-sprints and do traditional boxing type-conditioning like heavybag work, double-ended bag work and jump rope. The thing is I did similar things when I trained almost exclusively through the 80's and early 90's, but while I was training in Shorinkan Shorin Ryu.

Muay Thai shin kicks are hard to accomplish when you are a 70 year old with arthritis and osteoporosis. A lot of traditional senseis/sifus can fight very well into their 60's, 70's and 80's. The moderation helps to preserve the body for life's battle with senescence (old age). Most of us will never have to fight, but if we do, who's to say that it will be when you're 22 and in your prime? Of course you could always enter tourneys and such to "test" yourself, because you lack some faith in your ability to assess these things or something, and defeat the purpose of learning to fight- ONLY for self-preservation. Don't worry about a real adversary doing it for you, do it to yourself and fight a losing battle.

Our dojo in the PI was a cooperative effort with everyone from Kajukenbo to Muay Thai training there. We often had interdisciplinary sparring sessions with Goju, Hung Gar, Judo, Kuntaw/Kali, Kenpo, TKD and Shotokan. It was fun and some could squab' (regardless of style) and some didn't have the foggiest. Most were very mediocre.

The Muay Thai guys didn't do as much Hojo Undo (supplementary training-weightlifting, etc.) as the Kajukenbo, Boxers and Shotokan cats. They really knew how to push a bag around (penetrating power is the aim not pushing power), but I've seen good players from each camp represent themselves welll against them. A lot of traditional Okinawan and Japanese Karate styles employ devastating leg kicks, grappling and in a lot of instances, a wider array of hand techniques.

With the exception of Goju, almost all the styles had no prob with TKD at all. Their instructor was the last to teach at the school, and thought that the training would be like it was in the States (he was Korean and did train in Korea, too), but the level of kumite skills was broader than he had ever seen before. It took him a while to acclimate.

My point is that nothing exists in a vacuum. I have always known people who have lifted, run, did bagwork, cross-trained (after attaining some proficiency in a good fighting system) and sparred real hard. When the weekend came, and it was time to go off-base into the mean streets of Angeles City, in a 3rd world country, many of 'em got their arses handed to them in a chaotic fighting scenario. No intros, taping of the hands, working up a sweat anticipating something. Just "Hey, Stupid Kano" or "Friggin' SP wannabe cop" and "Bam"! One second laughing, maybe a little inebriated (or lots) and the next Thai Boxer, or TKD guy getting a beatdown from every conceivable direction. Sometimes one-on-one sometimes not.

You know who won a lot of those fights though? Guys who trained in a good solid, gross-mechanics, simplified fighting system, with lots of practical forms training, for a long time. Their wealth of imperturbability, perseverance and strong mental conditioning saved them a lot of the time. Then again I knew boxers, grapplers and thai boxers who were awesome street fighters.

Again I reiterate; nothing exists in a vacuum. The traditional masters were fighting people of similar knowledge, physical build, technological advancement and so on, as the people are now. We ain't talking about sending Rickson Gracie, Cung Le or Alex Gong back in time to fight these masters. There are traditional martialists these days that could hang with them (well maybe not Rickson). Usely scrubs or journeymen enter MMA, not real Black Belt level fighters. It's almost against the traditional credo to fight for no reason. To secure people self-gratfication, fame, riches or to prove a point, are not valid reasons to harm someone. Ever..

Additionally, the techs learned from a traditional style are just as effective now as they were 100 years or 1 month ago. The human body has changed very, very little since about 100,000 years ago. Now traditional techs are employed by bigger, stronger, more technologically advanced folks, and in many instances with modern anatomy and physiology to make it even more effective. All the smart karateka, jujutsuka, judoka, thai boxers and chuan Fa practitioners are cross-training, too. A prime example is Chuck Lidell who uses a base art of Hawaiian Kempo as his foundation. After all how many tens of thousands of years does it take for people without firearms and other advanced weapons, to formulate an effective empty-hand or weapons based combat style? Without guns the need to protect yourself in other ways was a prerogative. Remember, nothing is new under the sun. Everything is just a modern interpretation of ancient human precepts- from government to MAs.

So dowatchyalike, if the intention and your ability to deduce practicality are there then you can't go wrong. BTW, TKD players can probably take care of themselves, but in the end I guess everything is subjective and based on actual real world, real time observation. Ain't it?

[MA fanatic]

Merryprankster: Hey, if you can last against a purple in a purple devision, you must be a purple. Its the quality of time not the time you put in. That is what i like about bjj, the ranks few, but those who get them from qualified instructors have definitely earned them. A friend of mine had been training in TKD for pretty much close to 10 years now. He got his black withing 2.5 years. Basically just came to class a couple times a week for one hour. My old instructor only gave 6 black belts in 12 years (most have trained with him for over 8 years and were required to keep attendance, and regularly spar and compete in either TKD and/or Judo...some did some kickboxing as well). All depends on the teacher and requirements I suppose. I just started under Gracie Bara. Before did some shooto where we had no belt ranks. Presently we also have some white belts with as much as 4-5 years grappling experience. After being around the martial arts for many years, it is a pleasure to see a school where rank is taken very seriously and students feel that obtaining a rank would take years of hard training. In most (not all) other schools I have seen students just walk through their monthly promotion tests knowing before they even step onto the mat that they will pass.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Omega:
I don't think anyone, at least from the posts I read, is actually argueing that traditional training is "useless." A lot of training actually remains constant and will always remain constant (heavy bag work, some focus mit or focus glove work, running, some form of lifting, in many schools hand conditioning, etc. etc.). However, what I'm saying is that many (not all) traditional instructors don't even accept the possibility of there being other approaches to training. The human body itself didn't change, but from new research into anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc. etc. we now have state of the art equipment, newly designed drills, and methods of reaching peak performance faster than before. This has nothing to do with tradition Vs. sport. Even traditional styles should want their students to be in peak physical form. Just look at the shear number of high ranking black belts who are completely out of shape.

A funny side story: I once asked a Kenpo instructor why all his black belts were at least 35 -45lbs overweight (don't worry the guy was my friend, I wouldn't be this rude to someone I don't know). He told me because "our technique is so good." What?
MA fanatic

[dezhen2001]

i think that sucks when ppl get grades for just turning up and things... i seen it a few times here in the UK, but luckily not so much.

Now the school i'm at has no grades whatsoever - just teacher and student. There are seniors and juniors of course, but that's easy to see anyway. You get tested when ur ready, and either pass or fail there and then... for me it works better

MP: good work on your ! Training hard deserves respect no matter what it is!

MA Fanatic: that last paragraph cracked me up

david

[dezhen2001]

MA Fanatic: i think that there are just different ways of training to do different (and in some cases the same) things... I mean i don't do any weights, running, nutrition etc. and can keep up easily with my friends who are in the Uni athletic team when we go running. They go running 3 or 4 times a week, while I just train in Qigong and Gong Fu - that's it.

Like Omegapoint said, i think there is merit in doing anything with perseverance and dedication (that's what Kung Fu means: skill earned through hard work and practise). It's just our methods differ

david

[Merryprankster]

Omega,

I note what you say about the MT/Boxing/Wrestling--hard to lay shin kicks in when you're 80. Well, that's true.

But you have to remember something--these guys engage in "live combat." It's full blast.

I'm not saying that "traditionalists," don't. What I'm saying is that 20 or 30 ring fights will take a lot out of a person. A lot of training time...a lot of injuries. I know that many people don't ever step into the ring and fight--but every person I've met that trains with ring fighters, or even in a training hall where they just beat on each other a lot, is messed up in some way

If there were a high-profile, accepted, fighting circuit for TCC, I bet you people would walk away with the same kinds of physical problem you see in the combat sports.

dz--what you are talking about is a general level of "fitness," and it's good that you posess that--but if you wanted to keep up with a "runner," you might have a hard time. I have a friend who is a runner, and she can post a 5:00 mile. Unless you are blessed as a runner, that's a hard time to get for most of us.

Of course, a certain amount of natural ability goes into any of this