Making money in the Martial Arts

[PaulLin]

Does teaching in local schools like university, college, highschool, either in club forms or class forms, will work? I think there is a lot of young people who are in the athletic programs in school, who didn't make it in the team, would like to be a part of MA? The disadvantage in comparing TKD with CMA is that we really don't have the kind of unified organization and international recognition like Olympic. But in many people's mind, CMA means more than just hollow-selfproudness of TKD.

In fact, some one in Cal. State Fullerton just opened a Wushu class, it counts 1 unit. Kungfu is much better than Wushu, how come Wushu can do it we can't?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by yu shan

Doesnt it make you sick to see the TKD schools, teach crap, yet make the money they do? I think people are easily brainwashed, and lazy!

Thanks for everyones input.

It make me very sick, not only they get the money by teach crap, TKD people I have met acted as if they are the superior and others are all lower than they. I can't wait to kick their *ss.

[CrushingFist]

1. thai pads/focus mits- enough so you don't have a line of people waiting
2. Kicking shield/cardio paddle
3. Heavy bags
4. Bag gloves/ wraps
5. gloves (boxing or grappling) 2 sets at least
5. Headgear
6. elbow and or chest protector
7. Shin pads
8. A mat for throwing/wrestling
9. jow/first aid

I think you can have at most 2 pairs of : #7, 6, and 5.
Because ppl can buy their own. and wraps...ppl can definately buy their own wraps, hell no im wearing other ppls wraps, bleh.

Heavy BagS? as in plural? No you just need one at most, and many styles do not even use bags because the impact is not good for sensitivity in the hands.

Jow/First aid, a bottle of jow is like 10$ so thats not a big deal, and some bandaids and tape and wrap and what not.

I think a couple thai pads are good, and a few focus mits. but cardio paddles are not worth the money.


"I don't think you can have a professional school without these. I have taken classes and most are mickey mouse things thrown together. To make fighters, I think these training tools are essential.. "
I'm suprised you said that because i know you come from mantis lineage...but think back decades if not an entire century or two, they may have had heavy bags at most. I don't think a professional school needs anything more than a professional teacher...everything else is just frills and icing on the cake.

[HuangKaiVun]

I have great respect for TKD schools that have lots of students and run big business.

If they were truly so terrible, nobody would patronize them. Such is the way of free enterprise.

One cannot deny the success TKD schools has. It goes beyond mere marketing; a school has to be able to retain students in order to stay afloat. I've trained in such schools - they know EXACTLY what they're all about and use their collective power of group learning to make themselves better.

Also, most of the really good TKD schools I've been to have masters that know far more than just point sparring. They have the traditional knowledge hidden under the guise of "black belt and up" school. This is how they find out who's capable of hardcore training. If you look at any TKD school that offers such a program, usually the number of people in the "black belt program" is smaller than the average kung fu class.

When I open up my own kung fu school, I'll study closely the practices of the Mckwoons and TKD schools. If I'm smart, I'll learn a thing or two from them about business and marketing.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, there are many Tae Kwon Do schools with 200-300 students. That's a six figure income for the owner unless he's really really deep in debt or something.

Now, if we were to "Kung Fu a'size" a Tae Kwon Do program, Or "Tae Kwon Do'ify" a Kung Fu program, there is no reason why ~WE~ can't pull in six figure incomes from teaching too.

I'm actually planing to take Tae Kwon Do for a wile, not to learn the art, but to see how they are running thier buisness, so I can later open a school near them and steal all their students MUUUUUAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dezhen2001]

and the other thread said Tae Li was sneeky!

david

[PaulLin]

Well, I have been working with so called IL-DO TKD before. They seems to have all different kind of specialistd working together as a team work--such as specialized in advertising, tournament, accounting, lesson plan, etc. As far as I know, most CMA are working solitaryly, and competing against other CMA rather, not working together at all.

Most of the so called traditional skill that they have, are taken form different styles of CMA, and yet, claim under the TKD style, and telling me how great the TKDs and Koreans are in compare to Chinese.

There used to be a student from Korea, Ko, practiced with us who had learned very old style of TKD, his skills has not that much of high kick at all, very close to a good ShiaoLin style. According to him, the TKD that he saw around in USA, is all new styles, he don't want to practice new ones.

Then again, if CMA must stand up, we need have team work. We don't have a universal standard either, like TKD has, to set CMA into a reliable order (CMA is a much larger field than TKD any ways).

If I would be in the business, the first one I will pick up on against will be TKD.

[yu shan]

Hi PaulLin

tkd folks hate to admit to the fact, there young style has Northern Chinese influence, Totally watered down mind you! They are missing the whole picture. Much to our CMA demise in the USA, unfortunately, Americans are lazy, and do not have a high tolerance for pain. Face it, tkd is the American way of ma. It is very easy, belt ranking provides sense of accomplishment, I`m somebody. PL they are clueless, you know what I mean. In my MA career, I have been invited to testing of Korean arts. Once, I asked a new black belt to show me an application out of the "pattern" just performed. Had no idea what it did. Then I asked the teacher, let`s say I heard ummm. I did show the young man a Mantis version, he won`t forget. PaulLin, my e-mail is ripdogmantis@worldnet.att.net
There style is absurd and comical, if it was your first to pick on, wouldnt last long would it? Could be another thread, what many ways to defeat a tkd guy! Man I have a million!

[PaulLin]

YuShan,
I couldn't agree with you more. That kind of things in experiece with TKD is not new to me. I really can't find a good TKD any where and the good older style of TKD that are really useful appeared to be only myth, fiction.

Oh yeah, we have many ways of defeading TKD techniques, way too easy. They really think that they can be like the proud comic heros, you can say that again.

I usually think that if any CMA people thinking that TKD has any use at all, I will totally doubt about the level of this person's CMA, I would think he/she don't really know CMA. And yet, there are many people claim that they perfession at CMA and TKD at the same time, I can't see that is vaild, since a true good CMA will make TKD obsolate.

My father think that way too, so was GM Wei, GM Wang, and GM Chang.

[Paul]

without getting into the topic of whether you even should be teaching MAs to begin with.

If kung fu is not your passion then you should not be teaching it.

If you see kung fu as a $ sign then something is definately wrong.

If you are passionate about what you do and manage to make money doing it then more power to you.

speaking for myself and myself only right now " I would never ever comprise and teach weak **** to people just to make a few dolllars as been proposed on this thread." Just contributes to the watering down of CMA.

If people "REALLY" want to learn a martial art there is no easy way to do it. It hurts and you will get beat on at one point or another.

please don't use any martial art just to make a buck, this kind of attitude really sickens me.

[HuangKaiVun]

So what is a sifu to do?

Cry out that "I hate money" and close his school in the face of novice students?

Those of us who study kung fu in schools would then have no teacher at all - and it would be virtually impossible to find a sifu PERIOD.

I DEFINITELY see kung fu as a $ sign, and I'll be doing everything in my power to earn as much as I can. If it means watering my art down so that SOMEBODY can learn SOMETHING, so be it. Any fulltime sifu worth his salt embraces the money ideal.

I see nothing wrong with wanting to reach a large number of people, many of whom will not train long in the martial arts due to lack of talent or commitment. They will form the bulk of my future business, and why shouldn't I give them the best training for the limited time they intend to stay? If competitions and belts is what it'll take to retain their interest so that they stay in the martial arts, so be it.

Watering down of CMAs? By what standard is that? What's better, restricting one's student base to a select few or SPREADING IT WIDELY so that people of all walks can enjoy it? The good students rise to the top regardless, just as they do at TKD schools all over the world.

I'd rather a student stay for promotions and glory than simply quit martial arts altogether - or run to the next sifu who offers the things that I do NOT.


PaulLin, you should've met some of the old TKD masters I trained with. These were hardened fighters who'd put chokeholds and dislocations on guys in real fights. My old TKD teacher knew exactly how to hit a guy to cause deep muscle damage without leaving an external bruise or break (internal strike).

Another one (50+ years in age) I knew could break a thick board that he held in one hand with a punch from the other hand. He did this for me in a seated position SLOWLY using a corkscrew motion of the TKD jing. I never could break a board that way and probably never will.

And even some of the younger TKD cats I've seen are horribly tough. It's hard to catch these guys, particularly because modern style TKD rapid fire combinations come and go so quickly. I know - I was one of them.

[dezhen2001]

HKV - good luck man, i think it'll be a hard road but deeply rewarding

This thread is really interesting for me, as it helps me understand a bit about the 'business' side of teaching MA as a living. It must be hard to generate enough income through dedicated students, if that's your only living... at least right at the start.

So what can you do meantime to survive and keep the integrity of the skill? It's a tough decision i think...

david

[Royal Dragon]

Here's the thing, if you DON'T offer a watered down program, then it is extremely hard to make enogh $$ to quit yur day job, in which case by working all day, your skills will never be what they should be. AND you will not beable to pass on the arts as they should be either, thus ensuring the demise of the art. by watering it down, and running a profitable school, you at least will have the free time to fully cultivate your skills, and maybe those of a few truely devoted students along the way.

The way i see it, offering a watered down porgram allows the deicated to presue thier art to the fullest so in the end you have MORE real traditinal players with REAL skill, than if you don't do it.

As for your Mcstudents, only a small hand full are capable of doing Kung Fu for real anyway, and if you tried to teach them that way they would all quit and do Tae Kwon Do, so nothing is lost by teaching them, and everything is gained.

So what's the problem now??

[KC Elbows]

As I have no intention of opening a for profit school, I don't have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned on this thread.

However, if you do open a school, have easy stuff taught for the bulk of people, teach the few hardcore people the real deal, what do you tell the students of the "easy watered down" majority? That they are learning to fight? That they are not? Some will ask.

The other thing to beware of is opening many such schools.

Eventually, you will reach the point where you will not be aware of all of the people who should be in the hardcore group, and so you(or the schools instructors) will be teaching people who deserve the real training nothing more than the watered down stuff, and leading them to believe they are learning the real deal.

Eventually, they will leave, find the best teacher they can, and they will make a point of discrediting your school and in any way possible, which is as good as you will deserve, since you were responsible for teaching a worthy student poorly.

What do you tell the students who aren't learning hard core, and thus aren't learning properly?

At what point do you quit opening schools?

What is your criterion for those who make it into the hardcore group?

Is it fair to make a diligent student wait until they reach high rank to learn real kung fu?(In the case of schools with ranking systems)

Have you thoughroughly researched the down side of this type system of teaching? Not just the fact that your school will put out a large number of poor fighters(because remember, you will be judged by ALL of your students, not just the hardcore group), but the mental aspect; if you lead others to believe they are learning more than they are, many of them will eventually resent you for wasting their time.

If you tell them they are not really learning the real deal, you will lose students and anyway, the whole point of this sort of arrangement for a school is to keep students, so you are stuck in a possition where, at best, you will be lieing by ommission, and, at worst, you will be outright lieing.

Remember, as the students will often have a certain awe of you, every lie you make will be remembered, even by the hardcore group, and you are stuck spending the rest of your professional career supporting the lies from the past.

For those of you who believe martial arts should build character(I don't necessarily hold to this, but I know many do), what is the character lesson of teaching your hardcore students that they are learning the right way, and the rest are taught the wrong way?

[Royal Dragon]

As I have no intention of opening a for profit school, I don't have to deal with any of the stuff mentioned on this thread.

However, if you do open a school, have easy stuff taught for the bulk of people, teach the few hardcore people the real deal, what do you tell the students of the "easy watered down" majority? That they are learning to fight? That they are not? Some will ask.
Reply]
Simple, I sell them the Modern main stream Kung Fu system specifcally designed for the American public.

The other thing to beware of is opening many such schools.
Reply]
I am only interested in one location that will allow me to not have to work, yet live a comfortable life style.

Eventually, you will reach the point where you will not be aware of all of the people who should be in the hardcore group, and so you(or the schools instructors) will be teaching people who deserve the real training nothing more than the watered down stuff, and leading them to believe they are learning the real deal.

Reply]
Hm, hypothetically, "IF" I hads a chain of schools then those on the Mainsteam program (Recreational classes) would have to qualify to get on the traditional program. If they can't meet the requirements, I won't qualify them, and they must certify under ME to be on the traditinal program. I could also have a different uniform, or matbe a different ranking system. Like I said, I'm not interested in more than one school anyway. I'm trying to aleviate headeches as it is.

Eventually, they will leave, find the best teacher they can, and they will make a point of discrediting your school and in any way possible, which is as good as you will deserve, since you were responsible for teaching a worthy student poorly.

Reply]
No, I will have a reputation of running quality programs for the general public, AND a quality traditional program. One way to ensure this is to have general public students compete in the little local point tournamnets, but the traditional students fight in the Kou Shou, or San Shou tournaments. People will get the idea I have any students all competing at different levels.

What do you tell the students who aren't learning hard core, and thus aren't learning properly?

Reply]
I tell them they are on a simplified program designed for the typical American market. "IF" they "THINK" they are material for traditional training, and they PROVE that to me, they will be invited to train in the traditional program. The traditonal program will be scaled to match the hourly rate of the recreational program + some extra perks, like unlimmedted use of the facilitys, maybe lockers, showers etc, that way the students won't be paying me any more per hour, and probually less if I can do it to help encourage people to try out for ithe program.

I will prescribe a series of performance standards, and the methods to achieve them. Once they do, I will give them the oppertunity to train on the traditional program on a probationary basis. if they do well, I will keep them there, and they will be happy. if not, they just go back to the Recreational program talking about how much stronger the traditional program is, and thus boost the desire of other students to try out for it.

At what point do you quit opening schools?

reply]
I can't speak for all, but for me, I only want one. Anything more will be too much heache for me.

What is your criterion for those who make it into the hardcore group?
Reply]
I don't know yet, I will have to come up with some way of identfying those that will thrive on a hard core enviroment, and implament a standard and fair way to qualify canidates. Got any idea's??

Is it fair to make a diligent student wait until they reach high rank to learn real kung fu?(In the case of schools with ranking systems)

Reply]
No, that's why I am going to set up some sort of qualifyng bench mark. Any student that can hit that mark regaurdless of rank will by considered a viable applicant

Maybe, I can make it so they must hit the 3rd rank before I will allow them to apply, that way they have the basics down and some fundementals, but I just don't know how I'm going to do it yet. What do you think?

Have you thoughroughly researched the down side of this type system of teaching? Not just the fact that your school will put out a large number of poor fighters(because remember, you will be judged by ALL of your students, not just the hardcore group), but the mental aspect; if you lead others to believe they are learning more than they are, many of them will eventually resent you for wasting their time.

Reply]
That's why I don't mislead them, I explain UP FRONT what the various programs are, and what is taught, inclding posting the currinculem all the way up to Black sash on the wall somewhere. Nothing hiddden, and a clear defined path to follow from day one.

If you tell them they are not really learning the real deal, you will lose students and anyway, the whole point of this sort of arrangement for a school is to keep students, so you are stuck in a possition where, at best, you will be lieing by ommission, and, at worst, you will be outright lieing.

Reply]
Wrong, as the students that want recreational program, will stay for that, and the students that want the traditional program will be challenged to qualify as soon as they express a desire to do so. I will also be useing the traditional program as a selling and marketing point from day one, so students know what they are learning, and can chose the program best suited for them at any given time.

Remember, as the students will often have a certain awe of you, every lie you make will be remembered, even by the hardcore group, and you are stuck spending the rest of your professional career supporting the lies from the past.

Reply]
I'm a strait foreward kind'a guy. No lies will be nessasry. The truth will be a bigger selling point in a situation like this as the general population will see I have programs to cater to a larger variety of personal intrests. People will be able to find their nitch, and persue THEIR needs, not mine, and I still make a good living to boot!!

For those of you who believe martial arts should build character(I don't necessarily hold to this, but I know many do), what is the character lesson of teaching your hardcore students that they are learning the right way, and the rest are taught the wrong way?

Reply]
It's not a right or wrong training, its right or wrong for the student. A studnet with a hecktic scedual and family responsibiltys, would be on the wrong program if they were doing Traditional, when they only had time for the Recreational program.

Those with the time and desire, would be on the wrong program by being stuck in the rec. classes.

It's not about right or wrong training, its about serving your client base correctly. The larger your client base, the more money you make, and the more secure and easy your life is. AND the more time you have to better your own Kung Fu

I want to teach a Shaoiln based system for the main stream recreational program, with 9 colored sashes, and only certifacation for beginner intermediat and advanced for the traditinal program, with NO outward recognition of rank. OR, I was thinking to give the Traditinal students a Purple sash only, or having NO ranks at all until black sash. That is the traditional way. Actually, the whole Black sash thing could considerably be pitched in the trash too, but I think maybe that one rank will be OK.

I'm still fromulating how I want to do this. I have plenty of time as I need to regain my health before any of this plays out. If I don't do that first, it's all fantasy anyway.

What do you think??