Shooting in Germany

[Dark Knight]

18 people killed and 6 others injured. If they only had stricter gun laws this wouldn’t have happened........wait they have very strict gun laws!!! How could this have happened?

[Black Jack]

Kind of funny how you don't see any liberal answers to this one.

Again, again, again, again, criminals don't obey gun laws, the only ones getting hurt are the poor people who have been disarmed by their own illusions or in this case the sad illusions of there parents.

[Radhnoti]

10 to 1 are the odds I'm giving that this whole thing will turn into more anti-gun legislation in Germany. They'll go for a total ban, eliminating the "gun clubs" for shooters...and whatever other small firearm liberties they still have over there. And then, when THAT fails, it'll be the fault of any surrounding countries that haven't banned firearms. And so on, and so on...
Anti-gun hysteria doesn't have to be backed by logic or reason and especially not practicality.
That's my two cents...let's sit back and watch, we'll see if the "slippery slope" argument for opposing ANY gun regulations holds water.

[Black Jack]

The U.N. will just use this as another excuse to further there total civilan disarming agenda. The United Nations succcckkkkksssss.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Kind of funny how you don't see any liberal answers to this one.

Again, again, again, again, criminals don't obey gun laws, the only ones getting hurt are the poor people who have been disarmed by their own illusions or in this case the sad illusions of there parents.

The shooter was a member of 2 gun clubs and was licensed. He wasn't a criminal - he was a licensed gun owner that lost the plot.

[Black Jack]

Joedoe, If your point is what I think it might be, it does not hold any water, what type of logic are you using?

The man was a criminal, he killed 14 teachers, 2 students and a police officer, he was a lunatic.

Just because he was a member of a legitimate target club in Germany, does not make his act non-criminal, he did not have a concealed carry permit, so thus he was breaking the law, like other criminals he did not care about that though.

To just buy a gun in Germany, a place by the way where self defense is generally stigmatized and only proffesional bodyguards get to have this so called "may-issue" concealed carry permits, one must posses a license issued by the police.

Strict laws are placed on the number and what kind of guns you may own, none however are supposed to be for self defense purposes, just target shooting and hunting, something which has thrived in Germany for some 500 years.

It is "technically" illegal to keep a loaded weapon at home, guns and ammo have to be stored separately, blowing away a home invader before he shoots at you, is likely to be regarded as murder, and to that fact that there are NO juries in Germany, well you better have a friendly judge.

Self defense in Germany is a joke, the poor people can not defend themselves, from what I hear is that fake guns are a big thing there, called "Scare-Guns" which fire blanks or OC spray, shops have racks of them for self defense, it used to be ok to carry them without a license, now they want a fake-gun CCW

Where a guy can go to the black market and pick up a piece cheap. Two quotes that sums this up.

"Police say that there are around 10 million legally owned guns in Germany, but estimate that there are twice as many illegal firearms, many flooding in from Eastern Europe since the fall of the Iron Curtain and from former Balkan war zones. Germany has a populaiton of about 82 million."

Source: Miami Herlad-Bloodbath Occurs as Gernamy Strengthens Gun Laws", April 26 2002.

"According to police statistics, only 0.004 percent of armed crimes in Germany are committed with a legally obtained firearm."

Source: Joachim Streitberger, Head of Weapons Rights, an association representing legal weapon owners in Germany, Daily Herald, April 26, 2002.

Peace.

[joedoe]

My point is that he was not considered a criminal before the massacre - he was a normal citizen that happened to have access to guns. We are not talking about a crim with an illegal gun - we are talking about a citizen that had legal access to guns.

Granted, the real problem is illegal guns and that is a problem whether you have tight gun controls or loose gun controls. Matter of fact, that is a hot topic in the news here right now - happened to start just before this German incident.

I guess my point is that if you have a proliferation of guns, it is very easy for someone to flip out and go on a killing spree like in Erfurt.

I know you will argue that if more people carried guns in Germany, then someone might have been able to stop him earlier. But if he did not have access to any guns, then the number of people he killed might also be lower.

[Black Jack]

Legal guns are not the issue, gun control only hurts those who are responsible citizens, making them unarmed to any criminal who will not obey these so-called rules of saftey, as seen in this attack.

Again,

"According to police statistics, only 0.004 percent of armed crimes in Germany are committed with a legaly obtained firearm"-Miami Herald.

The country is awash in illegal weapons, a country already strict with laws governing the right to own a gun, criminals don't obey laws, this freak did not obey the law to not have a armed weapon on his person, he did not obey the law to keep ammo and gun apart, if it was not a legal gun he could of just as easily gone and bought a firearm on the black market, from what I hear is that you can get a fully automatic weapon because of the collapse of East Germany.

All I am saying is that banning guns and strict guns laws don't work, its all an illusion for the publics well being, look at the crime rise in England, and yes I do believe that if the responsible citizens of Germany had the right to carry and own personal protection weapons, maybe this could of been avoided or at least brought to a close sooner.

Maybe the media should stop playing this one-sided game and start showcasing how many, many people save there lifes everyday with the use of a firearm.

[red_fists]

"According to police statistics, only 0.004 percent of armed crimes in Germany are committed with a legaly obtained firearm"-Miami Herald.

Let's get a Fact stragiht here that is 0.004% of ALL armed Crines, that includes Knifes, Botles, Crossbows, Bats, Knuckledusters and so on.
It is NOT an true indicator that Germany is awash with illegal Guns.

While it tragic what happens, the same could have happend with homemade Bombs, Cross bows or a large avriety of weapons.

YOU like many on this Forum are SOOO obesseed with Guns and the right to bear them, AS well as with the Idea that "NO GUN" means no Self Defense.
Which is total and utter BULL**** coming from brainwashed gun loving Sheeps, who feels small & weak without his Pea-shooter.

Guns are for WIMPS who cannot use their MA or their head to defend themselves.

And for the Guys that say gun Conrtol is ****, come to Japan and see for yourself.
VERY strict Gun laws and the LOWEST Crime rate in the WORLD.
The same counts for MANY other places that have a lower crime rate than the States.
Anyway I am out of here way too many Idiots and on KFO these days.
Way too muhc BJJ, MMA and Gun totting bull**** for a CMA Board.

Sayonara, you tough Guys.
Don't let reality intrude and shatter your dreams.

[Black Jack]

Man, when you are wrong, you are really wrong, or in this case it would be better to say when you are ignorant, you are really ignorant.

Red Fist you appear to be very naive or could it be that you might not know how to comprehend what you read. Which one is it?

"Police say that there are around 10 million legally owned guns in Germany, but estimate that there are twice as many illegal firearms, many flooding in from Eastern Europe since the fall of the Iron Curtain and from former Balkan war zones."-Miami Herald, April 26, 2002

"According to police statistics, only 0.004 percent of armed crimes in Germany are committed with a legally obtained firearm"-Miami Herald, April 26, 2002.

Spin that however you want but it still states the facts that only a very, very small percentage of crimes are committed with a legally obtained firearm.

And if you still don't believe that Germany is AWASH with illegal guns, then maybe you better have a crack at comprehending this quote.

"Germany already has strict laws governing the right to a gun, but experts say the country is awash with illegal weapons"-CNN "18 Die in German School Massacre", April 26, 2002

We still don't know where this CRIMINAL got his gun from.

The validity of your arguement, or better yet bizzare rant, probably doesn't matter to you, the real goal is obvious, you just don't trust people with guns. You should educate yourself and read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott, he studied crime rates in EVERY SINGLE COUNTY in the United States over a ten year period and that when the law requires that ordinary citizens be issued CCW permits, SURPRISE!, crime goes down, not sometimes, not usually, but every single time.

Gun Control is bull****, its been proven to hurt only the victims, the facts are there, all it does is create a gun free zone for criminals, I don't know enough about Japan to comment or care, but I would like to see that stats that say Japan is the safest country in the world and how this is tied "directly" into gun control.

BTW, what constitutes a person obessed with guns? I'm pretty sure by your standards I fall into that category, but it would be nice to know what exactly one has to do to qualify. Does owning gun make one obessed? Does speaking out for the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United STates make one obessed with guns? Does exposing gun control fraud make one obessed with guns????????????????????????????????????????

Maybe you should try some rational answers instead of the drivel you are posting now.

Down below comes my FAVORITE part of your absurd Nazi bull****, what a crock of shaolin-chi blast/fantasy nonsense, man I hope you are not teaching self defense, look out multiple attackers with weapons, I know the Hung Gar Butterfly Palm...hi-yaaaaaa!

"Guns are for WIMPS who cannot use their MA or their head to defend themselves."-Redfist

I guess this lady is a WIMP

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...binvade25.html

YOU ARE SUCH A BUFFON

[JWTAYLOR]

Guns are for WIMPS who cannot use their MA or their head to defend themselves.

Black Jack, I have to disagree with you. This statement from Red Fists was completely correct. Of course, I would replace the word "WIMPS" with the more appropriate word, "PEOPLE".

Let's look at the quote my way...

"Guns are for people who cannot use their MA or their head to defend themselves."

Sounds right to me.

After all, that's when I want to use my gun, when my martial arts skills and my head just aren't enough.

Let's say I'm driving with my wife, get a flat, a couple of guys pull up behind me, pull out a gun and start shooting at me and my wife. That's when my MA and my head alone just arne't enough. I need that gun to save the life of me and my wife.

Let's put in another example.

60 year old, 100lb grandma walking home with her 8 year old grand daughter. A 20 something man pulls up next to them in a van with a knife, moving towards grandma becuase he needs to get rid of the witness for what he's about to do to the little girl.
Grandma's incredible skill just won't be enough. She can be as clever as McGuiver but without that gun her grandkids's getting hurt.

Good point Red Fist. You have accurately shown us EXACTLY WHY WE NEED GUNS.

JWT

[Black Jack]

Thanks JWT,

The term people is much more viable. Well this whole points mut anyway if we all had the power of Richard Mooney

[Liokault]

You guys dont get it do you.

In germany their is gun controle....thats why this is a rare event to them.

In America you have just got used to problems being sorted out by shooting.

You guys really need gun controle.

[JWTAYLOR]

A mass civilian killing is a pretty rare event anywhere. Remember, it was news to us here in the U.S.A. as well, not becuase it was Germany, but because of it's sheer scale and tragedy.

JWT

[Dark Knight]

"You guys dont get it do you.

In germany their is gun controle....thats why this is a rare event to them.

In America you have just got used to problems being sorted out by shooting.

You guys really need gun controle."

You watch too many movies. Crime in the US is not as high as in other countries with gun control.