Seriously, do you really think joint locks and kung fu movements are fast?

[lim]

Originally posted by Tinman I feel that joint locks within kung fu are fast once the technique is practiced and taken in. I do feel that it is the effectivness of the technique and not always the speed.
cya.
Ged thanks alot
Thats about the only real reply we have here.

Stacy
Tiger claw a flury of punches? What majical world do you live in.Remember, I said seriously.If you people believe that, then I can see why kung fu was never in N.H.B or U.F.C.

Jon
yeah, I know you must be kidding. Dimmak, get Real man.

Even if you people don't have to think of a technique, it's still no way faster than a strait punch, many punches.
you truely think you can grab one of those punches with a kung fu technique/jointlock?Get real.

Red fist, what can I say
you believe it's just fast enough,thats what is really sad.I never said anything about strength,in fact karate is almost all skill.

in closeing
You simply can't be in U.F.C. or N.H.B. Because kung fu is just not practical
In the spur of the moment you can't depend on kung fu,you need something more direct

your not going to CATCH a dammm punch,simple as that.

[red_fists]

Hey Tinman.

I believe you after I have seen you use your Kara-Te to beat multiple Opponents in UFC, NHB and similar.

Until than you are just wasting Bandwidth, plus I suggest you rereaed my Post again with your Brain switched on.

Very nice mis-reading of what is written there.

Seeya.

[AndyM]

I must point out here that we are actually all next to a minor rift in the space time continuum. Tinmans posts actually make some sense on the forum he is actually posting them on, which is in a parallel universe, on a planet far, far away!

I reccomend no response to these posts, as he probably can't see them anyway!

AndyM

[lim]

Originally posted by lim

if you people are so down on kung fu could you perhaps enlighten others as to why? oh and also while your at that could you also try to understand that unless you have ever experienced anything you never really know....mmm bye.

[David Jamieson]

Hey, this is actually a pretty good question.

Do traps and locks work against a consumate striker.
In short, yes they do.

If you have a Kung Fu man and a Kickboxer, both have trained diligently and both are good at what they do then it is inevitable that eventually the Kung fu man will lock up, trap or break the kick boxer. The kick boxer, by virtue of being a kickboxer has little training in dealing with traps or the striking blocks of Kung Fu.

I've been both, I've practiced hard at both, I've trained both. Kung fu when trained properly will destroy the kickboxer.

Add Kung fu to your kickboxing and you'll be winning some tournaments gauranteed. Add Kickboxing to your kung fu and you gain nothing.

something to think about is how you can further develop your Kung Fu to incorporate it's traps, locks and breaks. These are great close range tools for any fighter.

peace

[Royal Dragon]

You simply can't be in U.F.C. or N.H.B. Because kung fu is just not practical
In the spur of the moment you can't depend on kung fu,you need something more direct


Reply]
UFC turned to C R A P before the Kung Fu world really even noticed it, so your not going to see us there. We have Kuo Shou and San Shou. If the MMA's were so tough, why don't you see them there??

Also, Kung Fu IS direct. we have fast short attacks too, but we also have great setups, locks, throws, dislocations and breaks too. Can we catch a Jab, YES, I've done it. Infact Wednessday, I was working with a Kempo guy I know on just that very thing.

If you engage the opponent in sticky hands, you are already in contact with the jabbing hand, and any agresive movment it makes can easily be nullified the instant it is initiated.

Kick boxers don't even have sticky hands, so they see jabs as this super fast unstopable thing that one should be afraid of because they must rely on hand eye cordination, which is quite slow by comparisen.

Is a grappeler afraid of a Jab?? I don't think so. Why you ask? Because of all the time they spend engaed in close quarters contact builds their sensitivity pretty much the same way as "Sticky Hands" does for us. Kick Boxers don't even think about that stuff.

[Tinman]

alright Kung Lek
you have a point and well taken.
But, the question is do you really think you will have that chanch when 12 punches were already thrown at your head and the fights over before you even decide what to do?

[David Jamieson]

There is only a wall of will holding you back. Yours or your opponents. If the kickboxer has more hunger to win, then he just might. If the Kung fu fighter has the hunger to win or the need to prevail then he will win.

The Kung fu fighter is likely not just going to stand there with his hands at his side withstanding the punches of the other fighter.

He will likely be looking for his openings as well. But once inside with the ability to grab, hold and dump the kickboxer, what will the kickboxer do to change the situation in his favour? Keep hitting? How do you keep hitting when your legs are being taken out from under you, you have an arm pinned and inside uppercuts are raining on ya?

it really depends on the fighters in the end. THe one with more tools trained effectively should by the odds win the match. The one who has studied the opponent and worked out counters to the favourite moves of the opponent will have even more of an advantage.

To many variables in a realistic fight to say "who" will win. But usually the bigger stick defeats the twig.

peace

[Chang Style Novice]

Scarecrow -

Do you really have 12 hands? That's the only way I can think of for you to throw 12 jabs at once.

Anyway, the way it would work is like this: A jab is thrown, and intercepted by it's target. Then the target keeps his hand on the jabbing hand as it returns to the 'chambered' position. This is the 'sticking' that has been referred to throughout the thread. Once a hand is 'stuck' in this fashion, it becomes much more difficult to throw a punch with it, because the target of the punch is already in contact and can use that contact to alter the powerr or direction of any movement the 'jabbing' hand makes. It is at THIS point, NOT when the first jab is thrown that qinna (joint lock) techniques come into play.

But what about my other hand? You may ask. Well, what about it? I still have a hand free, too, and can use it to counterpunch while my sticking hand jams up your lead hand, or to deflect/stick to punches your other hand may throw.

This silly business of 12 punches is just a way of saying 'oo, I'm so fast you have no chance,' but that's a matter of personal attributes, not stylistic attributes and thus has no place in this discussion.

[Royal Dragon]

I've actually been intiating contact first. As soon as their Gaurd goes up, I use a Bagua step to circle to the outside, and closer to the opponenet. This allows my lead hand to engage the lead hand of the Kick Boxer (Kempo buddy in this case) BEFORE he even attempts anything. I'm to his outside, with my center line facing his shoulder, so "I" have full use of both arms, but he has one already tied up by my single palm change postion, and the other is held out of range due to the fact that my body position is to the outside of him. Because of my use of "Sticking", when he tries to turn to face me, I feel it in his arm first before I see it, and I just Bagua walk around thus remaining one step ahead of him wile raining down attacks with my free hand, or jamming and Chin Na"ing" him with my "Sticking" hand. We won't even get into the really cool ways you can take his structure away from that postion, and Kick Boxer types are SOOOOOOO suseptable to that kind of footwork and positioning it ain't even funny.


In all honesty, it's about all I do when I fight now, as it is so effective.

[NorthernMantis]

Thanks Xebs but Ralek is a no show. Looks like Ralek is afraid of the awesome power of Tinman's karaady.

Anyways Tinman. Your such a fool . Wether your trolling or not you're really showing how stupid you are. One of my close friends is a Muay Thai boxer, not the sissy kickboxing stuff with gloves and when we sparred he said I was too fast. So nah. Believe it or not I don't care. I'm just waiting for Ralek to come here and lay the smack down on you.

[Merryprankster]

Tinman--"Holy bright lights! Look up there! The Troll Signal!"
Ralek--"Quick Tinman!! To the Trollmobile!"



Royal--KF has Kuo Shou and San Shou huh? And Pride and the UFC are crap...OOooooook. Normally, you have really good comments, but this time, I do believe you are talking out of your sphincter.


Has it occurred to you that both of these venues are basically MMA events without the groundwork and submissions (Including standing ones, mind you)? Never mind that sacrifice throws such as ippon seoi nage--perfectly legit throws--are not scored because your knees hit the ground first. Are you even allowed to get behind your opponent and beat on him in a "shou" event? Or is it like boxing or kickboxing where if that happens, they break it up (assuming that a back arch throw isn't immediately on the way)?

Are you just grumpy that there is groundwork in MMA events or not like the fighters, or what?

If it's a rules issue, the irony is that the rules of San Shou and Kuo Shou are more restrictive than MMA events.

Both sets are excellent venues, but to argue one is crap and the other isn't...I'm not sure how your assumptions play out here....

[Royal Dragon]

They are both C R A P, so why would we go from our circutes whith restrictive rules, to another with restrictive rules geared for ground fighting wrestlers?? Our Idea of Ground fighting, is the throw the guy, and come crashing down on his rips with one of our knees after he's been knocked unconcios by landing on his head. I don't think we can do that in our circutes, we can't do that in the UFC (because we are not striking wile WE are on the ground too), so why bother moving out of our element??

The UFC was good when it was
No biteing,
No Fish Hooking
And No Throat strikes (?is that right, been so long now)

As far as "I' am concerned, the UFC turned to C R A P when they added all those rules and geared it for ground huggers. Now it's no different than any other fight game.

[Stacey]

Kung fu never in UFC?

I don't think so.


UFC 6 and 7, Joel Sutton fought and won as an alternate...later he broke off from 8 step and left his winning streak with him.

Other fighters in 8 step have won in local NHB competitions.

BJJ takes out kickboxers by getting them in unfamiliar ranges, using positioning and techniques that they don't know. We do the same, but on the ground and in close. The positioning is the stance work and footwork, like RD mentioned.


I agree with him on only needing the ba gua footwork after initially engaging them. You can also engage, mantis pull and close line their neck for a choke or throw while rotating around them ba gua like.

Even with pure striking, there are a lot of subtelties that they don't know. Even thai kickboxers don't know.

[Archangel]

"They are both C R A P, so why would we go from our circutes whith restrictive rules, to another with restrictive rules geared for ground fighting wrestlers??"

Can you explain this more to me? How are MMA events geared toward ground grapplers when you can fight in any range you want.


Stacy,

Joel Sutton beat 2 inexperienced rookies in his alternate fights in the UFC. The reason he started losing was because the caliber of his opponents went up. If he didn't cross train and just stuck to Mantis he wouldn't have even won his first 2.