did kung fu masters 50 years ago spar?

[wiz cool c]

I heard somewhere that sparining is a new thing in kung fu maybe 40 or 50 years old or something. That in the past they only did partner routines. I was watching a Frank Yee tape yesterday and woundering if this master spared when he was learning kung fu.

[Stacey]

They faught constantly.

Praying Mantis boxing was created after Wong Long got his ass handed to him by a shoalin monk.


The difference is that they didnt' spar right off the bat. The trained movement and techniques, them had something to fight with.

Whatever you heard was bull. Tai chi guys were fighting ba gua masters in the imperial palace. Bodyguards and bouncers were always testing it out and practicing forms to make themselves better fighters. Nothing is new.

NHB is very traditional with kung fu. It is the only consitant thing in chinese martial arts, it is the oldest. It is the heartbeat of kung fu. Without combat, kung fu is just a wax museum or warriors.


back in Taiwan/Hong Kong 50 years ago, you could challenge a kung fu guy and if he refused, you could simply attack. The courts more or less overlooked it. People didn't rat each other out either. Bare knuckle. Not that bare knuckle is any more dangerous than gloves, its less actually. Thats why boxers in the 1800 fought for 100 plus rounds.

Now if you do that, you go to jail.

[Royal Dragon]

Can't tell you for sure, but I read somewhere that they used to wrap thier hands and feet on cloth and practice free fighting. It makes sense to me, as often wile training free fighting just happens. It's human nature, and that has been constant since long before the martial arts were anything more than Caveasaurus Combat (TM).

[wiz cool c]

I have heard of these challenge matches, but was sparring a regular part of kung fu training 40 or 50 years ago? If it was what was it like?

[Xebsball]

Yeah they did spar/fight dude.
Probably either with very few gear or none at all.

Not sparring is the new thing, its comes from the watering down.
Also remember that there are different levels of sparring.

[LEGEND]

Bruce Lee had footage of HK street fights between CMA guys...they sparred full contact bare knuckle and often peeps got knock down and swept! Check out the JOHN LITTLE GAME OF DEATH video and u'll see 30 secs of b/w HK footage.

[CrushingFist]

it's called san da, meaning free fighting. san da today is not FREE FIGHTING, it's restricted.

if your question is did kung fu masters put on pads gloves and mouthguards, the answer is no. but free fighting is very popular, and of course there were challenge matches as well.

but they did not have it in tournaments like they do today, it was just a training method, free fighting.

with KF moving to HK, some schools stopped doing so much free fighting, some didn't even teach it. some schools only worked on techniques and they would drill a lot. Meaning you would not actually fight until you were challenged or jumped or whatever the case may be.

[NorthernMantis]

Of course they did. Anyone who can tell you that you can fight without sarring or experience isn't telling the truth.

Legend-

Wow, I'm surprised. With you being a submission fighter and all I thought you would have an anti-cma post (with all trolls spouting off they're mouths i had gotten the wrong impreesion that a lot of mma were like that). I really need to stop judging people wrongly. Sorry abou that.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Stacey


Praying Mantis boxing was created after Wong Long got his ass handed to him by a shoalin monk.

lol it's so true. Sparring or fighting was the way of trial and error. Not only that, during that time there was no such thing as a ranking system unless you were in the military or an imperial guard. Either you were good or you were not. Many people always say well if there is no ranking system how do you know if the person is good? Well if the person get's his but served to him in a silver platter he'll know.

[Merryprankster]

Heck yeah!

They didn't get that good by being forms collectors.

The problem with MOST "TMA," schools is, that when it comes to kicking the snot out of each other, they aren't Traditional enough!!!

[Stacey]

no but they did practice their forms..

[PaulLin]

There are differences among External artists and Internal artists. All of the high External masters has been through countless real fights. On the other hand, Internal masters are more pickier about fight, and fight much less thand the External masters. The most intensive numbers of fights are among the lower and med. level. When reached high level, they fight less (but they still must get through the low and med level fights). Some Interanl masters are exceptional, they fight rarely and with a few astonising fight results. And yet, all the people who bluff themselves as high masters but never had any real fights are very questionable.

Well, that is why not only the higher level artists should be involved in contests, I think also visiting other schools for experiences as well, like Karate, TKD, Judo, Taiboxing and other different stylists, They reacts different than the CMAs.

[CrushingFist]

NorthernMantis, you mention that sparring or fighting is a method of trial and error.

As i said, some HK schools did NOT spar, instead they worked constantly on drills and 2 man forms, but they did not actually spar, the students would simply wait until they had to fight in the street to see if their drills would work. and yah a lotta them got their asses beat down, some of them won...but like you said, it's a process of trial and error.

one example of that comes from one of the articles in kung fu magazine, the one with lam chun fai on the cover. One of the masters being interviewed mentions that they never sparred, and they'd hav to wait for challenge matches or street fights.

i can think of a few other places that didn't spar either.

I don't agree with it being the best way to train fighters, but that is what SOME schools did.

[yu shan]

There are still challenges going on in Main-land China and Taiwan.

[PaulLin]

I need to add on more. Most high masters in the 50's must go through like 7 to 15 years of drilling on foundations, forms, 2 man forms, before they go out and use their skills. Even though they go out and testing the skills, they will focus on the arts themselves as what to gain in the knowledge and experiences.

There are many masters who fight for winning, I don't consider them as in high level of mastery. Since their heart and mind is not in the arts but only fames and positons. So the fight and fight are not all the same depends on the motive of the fight.