What would be your method of combat for a professional Muay Thai fighter?

[blacktaoist]

Ok guys, Most of you know about the claim of tai boxers beating down Chinese Boxing practitioners back in 1922.

So lets talk about today (2002) internal practitioners (Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Hsing Yi.) If you had to fight a professional Muay Thai fighter, what strategy would you utilize to beat him. How would you test his weapons, determining his strongest and weakest points?

I myself would try to close the gap on a tai fighter, tie up his hands in a clinch and try to lock his legs. Getting in close and throwing him to the ground would be one of my objectives. But if its extremely difficult to utilize throwing techniques then I would just neutralize and simultaneously counterstrike his attacks.

My major combat strategy for beating a Muay Thai fighter would be a combination of striking, locking and throwing for me to be effective.

What would be your method and strategy?

[Repulsive Monkey]

It would be like for any other opponent: stick,follow, issue.

[Ray Pina]

Just like anyone else: Face the hands and grappling directly, run from the kicks. By run, I mean break away while countering to the kicking or supporting leg or both. Don't quite have this down yet as it is just being introduced to me, but I undertand the principle, just have to make it mine now.

To try and get in on, or block with a superior method is looking for trouble I believe. One kick from those guys and your arm is gone. Must have good wedging, the ability to run and reach them with a kick though they can't reach you. Very important to be able to utilze the full body, extention (back leg). This is where truly understanding walking the circle comes into play, not just spending time walking in circles.

[Nexus]

RM nice response! However I thought it is worth mentioning that sticking, following issuing is only one method of dealing with agression. Sticking energy is one of many we learn. You can just as easily lead by walking away and so forth.

[looking_up]

I've been pondering a similar issue that should fit in this thread:

Ways to counter a fast roundhouse kick to the legs/side.

This is a good question, I think, because a roundhouse kick is
a very common kick that almost anyone who has had a little bit
of training knows. I would say a good side kick is a close second,
but because of it's linear nature is theoretically easier to defend
against.

[Phantom Menace]

Close the gap and take them down. Neutralize the strikes by moving to a superior angle and distance and close in to a superior position and take them down as hard as possible. Get into a clinch move to the side and then try to get the back. Suplex if you can, if not do a rear double leg take down. From the rear double leg takedown go into a leglace position and rain down palm strikes to the back of his head and then go for a choke.

Stay away from a frontal clinch because you will be in danger from elbows and knees. Go to the rear ASAP.

You have to be good at measuring distance.

[Ray Pina]

Straight direct force gets inside of rounded force (finds the balls and soft tissue of the upper-inner thight too.)

Also, a good rule, let the force move you. Hit while in transition.

Closing the gap and such practices sound good -- but how? How do you close the gap on a bigger, well trained guy with a great reach -- who specializes in maintaining distance. How do you close the gap on someone who trains by kicking tree trunks? Do you just take the kick on the way in?

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist nice practical response! I know your sifu very well, When I have time I have to come down to you guys school to spar a little. Last time i talk to your sifu in chinatown, he told me you guys be sparring down there.


Repulsive Monkey> It would be like for any other opponent: stick,follow, issue.

To stick, follow , and issue is easy to talk about, but hard to do in a real situation. From my own experience of sparring many other martial Artist, it will not be easy to stick to any good martial art fighter, let alone a Muay Tai Fighter.

Try fighting a good Hsing Yi player, Most Hsing Yi practitioners that I know are not going to let you stick , as soon as the fight begin, these guys are going to attack fast and hard. Have you ever push hands with a professional Hsing Yi practitioners? Their whole push hands method is base on not letting their opponent stick to them, if you try to stick, they will issue(attack) then follow(stick) and finish their opponent.

No disrespect to you Repulsive Monkey, I respect your response, but I am talking about professional Muay Tai fighters , Guys that been in the fighting game a long time, I 'm not talking about part time fighters here.

I don't think it will be easy to stick to these guys, I feel today internal martial arts would have to come up with a better method then Stick,follow, and issue.

Can you give a better description of how you would utilize this theory of Stick,follow, and issue on a Muay Tai fighter.

For a example what if, you are fighting a Tai Boxer that is fast and powerful and is very good at inside fighting, and good at utilizing his elbows and knees.

[Mr.Sleazy]

As someone who trains MuayThai maybe I can add a bit.

I think you would not want to get close-range, because MuayThai is very strong there - knees and elbows, the Thai Clinch, and takedowns. We practice this stuff pretty hard.

Probably the best defense would be to wait for the roundhouse kick (they are real powerful but are slow, and are usually part of a combo), counter it, then take them down. Then its ground and pound time.

To counter against the roundhouse, you want to move sideways with the kick, trap the leg with one arm and post on the knee with the other, then instantly spin them in a backwards direction while pushing down on the knee.

[Water Dragon]

1. Cover up and rush, let the Thai Fighter go for the plumb.
2. Pray that my Taiji is good enough to not take a full power shot and work for the throw. (Front lifts amd hip throws seem to work good on Thai Fighteres, but watch those **** elbows!)

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist-How do you close the gap on someone who trains by kicking tree trunks? Do you just take the kick on the way in?


Your strategy should be always mental. Physically, you should fight all your opponents the same. If you fight a big guy you fight him hard to the inside. If you fight a smaller guy you fight him hard to the outside. When I say you fight them all the same I mean you attack them all hard and you attack the same spots eyes,liver, kidneys, etc...

A fighter bigger then you you should fight to the inside because he has the advantage of distance over you and can hit you. Theoretically you want to stay away from his weapons by keeping to his inside.


EvolutionFist -Do you just take the kick on the way in?

Hell no!! Come on now EvolutionFist you practice Ba Gua Zhang right. You should know how to deal with kicks. Kicks are very easy to deal with for a Ba Gua Man.

You can evade and redirect with footwork, or you can intrercept your opponents kick and simultaneously counterstrike, this will enable you to offset his balance while redirecting your opponent point of stability.

The best method I was taught was to avoid any head-on confrontations with your opponent, by evading to his side and counter attacking simultaneously.

[Shooter]

Very good questions blacktaoist. I pretty much asked the same questions of Tai Chi guys about MMA fighting and got the same answers as put forth here.

When I read the sense of urgency that some have expressed in getting to a particular range or hoping to avoid certain weapons, they aren't giving any account of Tai Chi's mental/emotional component. It's all being talked about on a tactical level based on cognition and theory. Against a pro Muay Thai fighter, those ideas are a crap-shoot at best. 50/50 chance of success or failure. As blacktaoist wrote, easier said than done.

Stick and follow were mentioned, but with no details. Although it does apply on one level in regard to what's been talked about here, it's not the same stick and follow as what would be applied in relation to the 5 Steps.

Outside of the chatroom, I've yet to see Tai Chi's positional strategies being discussed at all here, let alone beyond theory.

[Ray Pina]

Ha, BlackTaoist!

Nice offically meeting you here, I've reda your posts and have been in discussion with you but never one between us.

Don't worry, those weren't my questions, I was pondering the mindset of those using that mentality as a response. I have to admit, I find it quite rediclous. Look at the how to fight a bigger guy post too, same rediculous type answers. Train harder, shoot in. How do you shoot in on a bigger guy who can hold one hand out and keep you at bay? (again, I do not really want to know because I have no desire to implement this sort of technique.)

Me, I do fight everyone the same way -- as if they were bigger then me.

My aproach? O do not rush in and try to jam them -- at least not right away. Whatever you reach out with I hit. I do not go for the head if you're punching my head, I hit your forearm, that's the immediate threat and the closest target for me. By doing this, I can actually hit someone (their forearm) and they can't hit me. Then I wait for the other arm. Now I'm connected. Use gung fu from there.

Kicking, well, I described what I'm learning now above. But even in my S. Mantis and W Chun days I did not implement the methodology most mentioned. SOunds too dangerous. Hands are for fighting, kicks are for killing.

I've heard about you through one of my training brothers. We were doing some boxing for a bit but some injuries popped up so now we're back to kicking and walking the circle -- going deeper.

I hope we get back to the boxing soon. Teacher does not encourage fighting out among old training brothers because we do not want the technuque ou there. At the same time I want to start hitting some full-contact tournaments this fall -- I just got over a bum knee.

I'm usually there on Tues and Friday nights. Maybe not this Tues due to work. If you know my teacher you know he's always down. He always tells us to bring people down who question the principles.

I don't like doing that myself to be honest. I have a lot of respect for my senior brothers, but I think its our duty to step in on these matches so he can view the beauty of his technique from a nice comfortable chair. He should not be the only one beating these people.

I've been with him for 15 months now. I would say I understand the hand techniques somewhat -- of coarse not at a high level, that will take time. The one thing about me though is that I'm always down to test. If you come buy to box drop me a line first, this way you know you'll have at least one guy down to go. Again, you'll have to forgive me though, because I am no example of my master's effectiveness. That will take some time -- time I'm willing to invest.

I finished my rounds of looking, I consider him my last stop.

[blacktaoist]

EvolutionFist>I was pondering the mindset of those using that mentality as a response.

I had a feeling that was what you was doing.

When I come to vist u guys I let you know.
peace.

[Ray Pina]

Nice. I have to admit that I have never seen any Ba Gua other then my master's in person. I didn't seek him out neccessarily for the style's he teaches, just that his name just kept comin gup. Then I fought one of his past students and that was it -- I had to meet the man behind that technique.

At this point I'm more interested in E-Chuan then Ba Gua, because it is my master that I respect and not the name or way of any one particcular style. E-Chuan is a culmination of his knowledge and experiece. Very interesting man. I like his teaching style.

Wierd, it reminds me more of my childhhod karate days in newark then it does the gung fu I studied out on Long Island. Maybe because its new to me and I'm in awe.

Anyway, be well. Hope to see you soon.

Ray