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Thread: The Kwan Dao weighing 100lbs? That is ridiculous!

  1. #31
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    Gene- No argument about the practice thing!!

    Just it's practicality as a fighting weapon...
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  2. #32
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    Lo han

    A frind of mine has a family Lo Han system. Because of the historical relation to bagua, I asked to learn. The first day he handed me a 20 lb 7ft long Kwan Dao (almost all blade weight) and told me to do 100 cuts, high R to low L, then 100 high L to low R. After 20 on the R my arm was spasming.

    Also, the symbolism of 100 that was mentioned earlier was correct. In the I Ching it says " 64 hexagrams give way to the myriad of 10,000 things." 10k isn't much to our modern mind, but to a guy who was born, lived and died in the same 20 miles, thats a **** big #.

    Bill

  3. #33
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    Ironfist sez - "No. The human body does not adapt this way. It's like that story of the old Greek (?) guy who lifted a baby calf every day with one hand, and as it grew he kept lifting it every day, so by the time it was a huge cow he could still lift it with one hand. It's wrong. Sorry, just can't happen. The human body adapts, but not like that"

    You are not understanding my statement. Let me draw you an example, no pun intended. Lets say you start pulling 45 lbs, and you pull it 3-5 times at full draw before you start loosing strength. Well, in a few weeks you will be pulling it 10-15 times no problem, move up to 55 lbs and start over. The English Longbowmen pulled his bow on a regular basis usually starting at around 50-60 lbs at the age fo between 13-16. By the time they were regular Archers in the army they were pulling 100 lb bows, maintaining 10-12 SHOTS A SECOND (no one pulls a 100lb bow more then once a second, sorry if I originally mis stated that or something there seemed to be some confusion.) They could maintain this for 30-40 minutes!
    Now my point was that lets say you start swinging a small sword, abot 2lbs, pretty reasonable for your average longsword. After a few months you may be able to move up to 4 lbs or so. Eventually you "might" be able to swing a much heavier sword with some descent control.

    The problem is that most people assume sword play was involved, when generally 'sword play', especially in european regions, consisted of generally swinging your sword in a roughly controlled manner at your enemy. nothing pretty or showy about it. It wasnt about looking good, it was about killing before you were killed, and you were usually surrounded by plenty of people who wanted to kill you! Generally in a battle, overhand swings and thrusting was common, little room for much of anything else.
    Ah the highland claymore....they averged about 4-6 lbs, with some being as much as 8-9 lbs. Unwieldy? You bet your sweet arse, but the highlander wasnt know for his great strength or swordsmanship, he was generally a brutish warrior who charged into battle swinging. Heavy swords carried momentum and often were able to penetrate English Armor better the other weapons, hence the popular heavy axe as well.
    William Wallace, who it is said was a giant man at about 6 -7 ft, carried a sword that most historians say may have weighed as much as 12-14 lbs, and that is if the stories of his size are true. What Mr Wallace did have was cunnin and surprise on his side more often then not, and his hatred for englishmen outweighed his fear of death, a combination of things that can make one 'great' or kill one young.
    _______________
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  4. #34
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    Just to get WAY off on a tangent, I have also seen that NG special. There are also a few books written about he "superiority" of the Neandertal.

    One of the very interesting things is that their skull was larger than ours, and they had allot of protein in their diet. Moreover, judging on the shape of thier skull, their diet, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Neandertal man wasn't smarter than us.

    We just bread um out.

    Take a look at "Eaters of the Dead", the translation by Michael Criton. Then look at all of his commentaries, go the library and look up some of his sources. If you have that much time on your hand a. your just as big of a looser as I am, and b. you find some pretty interesting stuff about our predecessors.

    JWT
    If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

  5. #35
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    JWT,

    There is a theory floating around right now, based on some fossil records (don't know which ones), that Neanderthals had almost perfect memories---but learned slowly. In other words, they didn't reason things out as quickly as **** Sapiens, and therefore, had a harder time competing--but who knows?
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by Merryprankster
    JWT,

    There is a theory floating around right now, based on some fossil records (don't know which ones), that Neanderthals had almost perfect memories---but learned slowly. In other words, they didn't reason things out as quickly as **** Sapiens, and therefore, had a harder time competing--but who knows?
    How the hell can you tell from fossil records how good someone's memory was?

    As for the calf thing, I don't care how slowly a calf gains weight. The story with the calf is not possible.

    IronFist
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  7. #37
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    You make educated guesses based on the size of certain parts of the brain. We have an enormous cerebral cortex--used for reasoning and what not, whereas a reptile has what is referred to as an "R" complex--no brains, really..all instinct and reaction and vital functions. WE still have the R complex

    Now, how they got to the point of saying "this part was bigger than this part," is beyond me!
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  8. #38
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    A few things u must remember

    I'm not saying that the kwan dao was 100 or 108 lbs. Actuallly, i think it would be 10 caddy not not pounds. However, you must remember that there are always things like this written in Chinese history (Extreme things). you must also remember that the kwan dao was mainly used on horse back. you didn't really to swing it. You would have the blade sticking out on one side and ride through the battle field or just do one big slow swing while u ride through. The weight would make this easier. Was it 100 pounds? Maybe not but it probable was very heavy .0
    Last edited by Richie; 05-02-2002 at 03:45 PM.
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  9. #39
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    red5angel

    By the time they were regular Archers in the army they were pulling 100 lb bows, maintaining 10-12 SHOTS A SECOND (no one pulls a 100lb bow more then once a second, sorry if I originally mis stated that or something there seemed to be some confusion.)
    You just have the worst time writing 'second' when you mean 'minute' doncha?

    Otherwise, I agree completely.
    All my fight strategy is based on deliberately injuring my opponents. -
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    "It is the same in all wars; the soldiers do the fighting, the journalists do the shouting, and no true patriot ever get near a front-line trench, except on the briefest of propoganda visits...Perhaps when the next great war comes we may see that sight unprecendented in all history, a jingo with a bullet-hole in him."

    First you get good, then you get fast, then you get good and fast.

  10. #40
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    Ironfist...

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  11. #41
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    just a comment....the kwan sword would be used to a great effect against horses, not from them
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  12. #42
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    ahh little Julian!...wondered when you were going to pop up here
    vea victis

  13. #43
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    size matters

    FWIW, there's also that myth about Shaolin monks fending off Japanese pirates with heavy iron staffs. Again, it's seems pretty heavy for combat. If you look at the evolution of weapons, we started heavy with metals like bronze, then progressed to lighted, stronger stuff like steel. Weapons get lighter, faster and sharper. This of course, makes the whole Shoalin monk thing kind of odd since it was more recent. The original Kwan Dao was probably heavier than the steel ones we are used to using, but I doubt that a combat weapon was 100+. If you have doubts, try a heavy Kwan Dao - this baby weighs in at 13 lbs and if you try swing it, you'll realize how heavy 100+ might be http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-81cs.html

    And that calf story, although a great myth, seems highly unlikely to me too. It's like the bamboo jumping myth. Plant some bamboo, and jump over it each day. As it grows, you learn to jump higher and higher until you're jumping up to rooftops. Ever seen bamboo grow? It grows so fast you can almost see it. I grow some goldenrod and bisseti and man, my bisseti just shot up to well over my head in about a month.

    Legends often exaggerate. That's why we call them legends. But even if it's not historic fact, it has intrinsic value for what it exalts. To be critical of a 100 lb Kwan Dao myth is like questioning how Noah could collect two of every animal and keep them on an ark for 40 days. You miss the point of the allegory. You get lost in the details of a myth and fail to extract the moral.

    At the same time, we should all guard against presenting myth as fact. This habit plagues the martial world.
    Gene Ching
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  14. #44
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    A wild guess about how anthropologists might estimate the size of various parts of the neanderthal brain - mummified corpses in glaciers, preservative swamps, that kind of thing.
    All my fight strategy is based on deliberately injuring my opponents. -
    Crippled Avenger

    "It is the same in all wars; the soldiers do the fighting, the journalists do the shouting, and no true patriot ever get near a front-line trench, except on the briefest of propoganda visits...Perhaps when the next great war comes we may see that sight unprecendented in all history, a jingo with a bullet-hole in him."

    First you get good, then you get fast, then you get good and fast.

  15. #45
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    Gene-

    Exactly! Myths have their place--but presenting them as fact is a disservice.

    Kinda like 400-0 records for a certain Gracie.
    Last edited by Merryprankster; 05-03-2002 at 10:08 AM.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

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