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Thread: The Kwan Dao weighing 100lbs? That is ridiculous!

  1. #76
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    We will never really know if Kwan's weapon was 100lbs. or not. We can't prove that he did, but we can't really prove that he didn't either. We will never really know if others had a similar ability.
    Anyone that has ever really used a kwan do knows that it is a center weight point held weapon. It is not held by its end. It is not a sword in the traditional sense. Speed in use is determined by how well balanced the lance is.

    We can guess, we can theorize, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. The past is the past. I for one will not be so arrogant as to pass judgement on something like this as if I am somehow kwans equal. None of us are, not even remotely. I'm not going to judge his strength by my weakness'.

    My kwan do is only 25 lbs. In my hands it is not clumsy or slow. I doubt it was in his.

  2. #77
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    Heavy Kwandao

    SifuAbel,
    Sounds like you have the heaviest Kwandao on KFO. Can you do a form with it?

    Interesting point about the balance point being in the center. I can't do my northern staff forms with an extremely heavy pole, such as a steel bar. The balance point is in the middle. But in those forms the 2 hands come together at one end to swing the staff around.

    Now you have got me wondering if I could make a tapered bar and do those staff forms.

    Do you know anything about that?

  3. #78
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    Braden--Yeah, I think so too. I was asking the same questions when I heard about it.

    I also think that there is much to be said for for the interbreeding thing. I've met some people I'd consider throwbacks, myself.

    SifuAbel- A good weapon is balanced--that is true--but you still run into what amount to rotational inertia problems (it takes less effort to stop a spinning tennis ball than a spinning bowling ball). I guess what I'm asking is this--you have a heavy Kwan--but could you really use it in battle?

    I have no problem with the use of such an object for forms or as ceremonial displays, but the use of it as a battle weapon seems a bit beyond even exceptional human limits.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  4. #79
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    The Kwan Do as a weapon of todays classical weapons practitioner is about 20 lbs. The wu shu Kwan Do's are about 5 lbs.

    The one I learned with was about 20 lbs and the flow is pretty quick. Don't forget that the weapon produces momentum of it's own once the weight of it is in motion. The user at times is only guiding the weapon and using it's tail weight against it's head weight to stop it.

    One of my classmates once bought a combat Kwan Do out west and it was heavy duty. Almost 40lbs and what a wicked workout doing the Kwan Do set from our school.

    Personally, I don't think 100 lbs is that big of a deal. From atop a horse you could lay it across the saddle and ride through the battle. Anyone who didn't duck... well, that would be the end of the day for them.

    To weild it on the ground would take a lot of strength, but if the weapon was well balanced, once it is in motion, the effort required to redirect the motion is considerably less than the effort to start the weapon in motion.

    peace
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #80
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    Can I do a form with it? Hee hee. I've won major tournaments with it. I used to present my kwan do to the judges just so they feel the weight. After which they ask how I can move it so fast.

    The inertia in the form is countered by various types of bracing against the body.

    It's obvious KL has used a kwan do. You're absolutely right about carrying the inertia over to the next move.
    As KL mentioned, a hundred pounds moving at 25 MPH on a horse doesn't need much more coaxing. Just like other horse back lances it was only meant for the one or two contacts in passing.

    As far as battle is concerned, this weapon is a cleaver not a slicer. Not much can get in the way of this weapon and hope to stop it. Once it does hit a body alot of the force is spent. Also the other end was used as a spear it. So more of the fast block and poke was done with the other end, with the blade weight at the base. The blade was meant for broad cutting.

  6. #81
    ya, why do people keep saying about it being a cavalry weapon so it should be heavy?

    adding weight to a charging weapon that stays relatively still will not do anything really different... u're going so fast and the steed your riding on is **** heavy so as long as you have a good grip, u're fine.

    making it heavy may make it easier to hold but u're going to drop it anyway probably after the first attack. u can't just stop and - i'll make up a word here - UNIMPALE it off of an infantryman when there are probably tons more around u...

  7. #82
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    Julien, do you practice with a Kwan Do?

    If you did, you would realize that while 100 lbs seems a lot, it is not out of the ordinary concerning classical weaponry.

    I have seen examples of medieval weaponry that are at the 70-100 lb weight. These are in the form of two handed broadswords, halbierds, and even a large and evil looking mace.

    The Kwan Do was not only a cavalry weapon, but was employed as such, there are numerous paintings depicting cavalry with Pole weapons and Kwan Do weapons.

    I myself have weilded a Kwan Do approaching 40 lbs in weight and it was not unmanageable. 20-30 lbs is not uncommon for a modern combat Kwan Do.

    Weapons were often times customized for the owner of the wepon. General Kwan Gong was recorded as a large man with great strength. As the "Patron Saint" of Kung Fu, perhaps the stories are a bit larger than life, but nevertheless, to gain this place in our minds would have taken some incredible deeds.

    Weilding a 100 poung Kwan Do would not be the most incredible thing General Kwan did.

    peace
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #83
    Originally posted by Kung Lek
    Julien, do you practice with a Kwan Do?

    If you did, you would realize that while 100 lbs seems a lot, it is not out of the ordinary concerning classical weaponry.

    I have seen examples of medieval weaponry that are at the 70-100 lb weight. These are in the form of two handed broadswords, halbierds, and even a large and evil looking mace.



    i'm sorry but that is terribly wrong

    like i said before, an ANVIL! ANVIL ANVIL ANVIL WEIGHS 100LBS!
    a big ANVIL weighs 100lbs

    plate armor only weighs 50lbs

    no weapon has more material than plate armor that is actually functional or is not made for a giant.

  9. #84
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    If you were to buy a full suit of medieval european armour today it would weigh almost 100 lbs.

    Granted there are much lighter suits, (50 lbs for a full suit would be very light especially in examples preceeding improved steel forging and firing.) as there are of course predominantly light weapons used as combat arms in the classical sense.

    100 lbs is not the weight of the Kwan Do used by the average joe, it is the weapon of General Kwan. A legend. Legends are seldom known to stay within the boundaries of commonality.

    Just as the examples I have seen are not common. But nevertheless there they are. Still, the Kwan Do used by people today weighs between 13 to 20 pounds with the metal shaft versions of same approaching 40 lbs.

    The same weapon used in competition Wu Shu routines weighs about 8 lbs or so.

    peace
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  10. #85
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    Hi guys
    Check out this pic of 3 variants/types of the kwando......authentic polearms used by the Qing Imperial Army for combat and preserved at the Forbidden City. Note that the 1st kwando on the left of the other 2 is 2.26 meters long..........

    http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo4.html



    The kwando was developed during 11th century China and my hypothesis is that it went on to influence the Japanese who later on developed a similar weapon called the naginata.



    Cheers
    Thomas Chen
    Last edited by Thomas Chen; 05-04-2002 at 04:38 PM.

  11. #86
    even if medieval plate suits weighed 100lbs - which they do not... even jousting suits only approach 80lbs - are u telling me there is the same amount of material in a 7ft kwan dao as a suit of plate armor designed for a 6ft man?

    impossible.

  12. #87
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    Originally posted by Julien


    1.a big ANVIL weighs 100lbs


    2.no weapon has more material than plate armor that is actually functional or is not made for a giant.
    1.No, a small anvil weighs a hundred pounds and it is not in the form of a long shaft and blade.


    2.Kwan kune was a giant. This is the arguement, did kwan kune use one, not if you or I could.
    I picked up a 100 pound plate at the gym today, it was heavy but not unmanagable. Kwan do is used mostly with circular body torque. So its not too hard to imagine a guy thats two feet taller and 100 pounds heavier than me could lift it easier.

  13. #88
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    My Kwan Dao's

    I bought an antique kwan dao around 12 years ago for only $700 dollars ozzy. I believe the seller didnt have a clue what he was selling!

    This kwan dao was given to the antique store by an old chinese lady the man said, she brought it in to sell as she didnt want it anymore. she told them it was her grandfathers and he was in the navy serving as a general. The kwan dao's blade is around a meter long with a generals rounded blade that is still sharp. The blade has been in battle as you can see a few nicks on it and the hilt has some heavy indentations in it.

    When i bought it was covered with rust on the blade but i used brasso and fine sand paper and brought it up looking the best i can. The pole is of a hard wood Oak I think! The blade goes into the pole and has riverts of brass and brass rings to cover and tighten the blade into the pole.

    All up it weighs around 10 pounds and stands around 7 feet. Its my prize posession!

    I have tried spinning it and its kind of difficult as 1) I dont want to slip up and cut a leg off and 2) drop it and destroy it.

    Maybe the heavier the weapon the higher the rank and shape of the blade? I heard this once...

    FT

  14. #89
    Originally posted by SifuAbel


    1.No, a small anvil weighs a hundred pounds and it is not in the form of a long shaft and blade.


    2.Kwan kune was a giant. This is the arguement, did kwan kune use one, not if you or I could.
    I picked up a 100 pound plate at the gym today, it was heavy but not unmanagable. Kwan do is used mostly with circular body torque. So its not too hard to imagine a guy thats two feet taller and 100 pounds heavier than me could lift it easier.

    actually, the anvil would be easier to wield since it is not as long... less leverage

    if u crumbled up a sword into a ball, u would have a shot-put size ball of carbon steel weighing about 2-4 pounds

    as soon as you stretch it out into a sword form, it feels much heavier because it now has much more top weigh.

    stretch an anvil into a staff and u got one long long staff... 50-100ft long

    on a sword, 1 ft = about .8 - 1lb of steel

    staves are basically the same, but maybe a half pound heavier

    the thing is though, they are probably made of wood anyway...

    and large anvils DO weigh 100lbs. i have many references from the Netsword Forum who actually make weapons.


    and as i said before, no melee weapon has the same amount of steel in it as plate armor... not even close, thus weapons are much lighter than armor.

    since no one seems to want to go to the Arms & Armor web-site, here are some cut-and-pastes from their FAQ

    "How much does this stuff weigh?

    From Armor to Daggers:

    Armor full suit 45-60 pounds depending on style.
    1/2 Suit of armor 30-45 pounds.
    Helmets 5-10 pounds
    Swords single hand 2-3.5 lb.
    ******* sword 3-4.5 lb.
    Real Two handers 4-8 lb.
    I have never seen an authentic combat sword greater than 9 pounds.
    Rapiers 3-5.5 lb.


    I was wondering how long the longest sword is?

    The longest sword I know of that was actually made for use as a weapon runs 76 inches in length and is at the Royal Armories in Leeds (IX-4). This is a fairly extreme length most two handed swords are shorter, averaging about 68 inches and weight between 5 and 6 lbs.


    Can Knights get up after they have fallen?

    A knight in armor for battle was very mobile. If he wasn't, he would be susceptible to attacks from behind or from a faster moving unarmored opponent. In fact it is recorded that some knights were able to leap into there saddles from a standing position beside there horse. It is completely untrue that an armored man was unable to get up after falling. The old story about a knight being winched up in a crane to get on his horse is a figment of Mark Twains imagination i.e. "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".


    I am greatly interested in acquiring a war hammer like that of Mjolnir i.e.. Thor's hammer perhaps a replica of some sort... would you have any info for me? Thanks for your time.

    We can produce something similar to the comic rendition of Thor's Hammer. It is not like any type of actual war hammer used in combat. The type of hammer usually depicted is based on a style of forging hammer, a three or five pound short handled sledge. Of course the hammer represented as Thors have been artists renditions and have no need to be actually usable as a weapon.


    Do you use stainless steel?

    We do not use stainless steel in our products. The reasons being that it is not authentic in any way and the alloys that impart the stainless quality also decrease the sword blades strength and toughness. "


    i put in the thing about weight for the obvious reasons and other things to destroy myths.

  15. #90
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    Red face Whatever...................

    Are you not reading anything that people post here?!? THE KWAN DO IS NOT A SWORD. It is a lance and it is held by the center weight. You do NOT hold it by its end. The Blade is heavy and thick the counter balance is heavy and thick. Your measurements have no bearing on the kwan do.

    FYI, chinese didn't use a whole lot of body armor.
    FYI, a 100 pound plate is no bigger than a large pizza and is only an inch thick. Melt that down into the shape of an anvil and you get a pretty small anvil.

    Do us a favor and actually pick one up and learn to use it before you make an endless tirade about something you only vaguely know about.

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