BSL Lyrics: Tom Toy

[GeneChing]

At Shaolin, I've only seen one version of tantui by one of the students of Zhu Tianxi (a layman disciple and folk master in nearby Zhengzhou.) It was a 24 line. Of course, all the monks recognize tantui (tis pretty recognizable) but i've never seen one do it. I should ask. Of maybe one of the various members here who is currently under a monk should ask. Mostly I've seen the monks do jibengong line drills in place of tantui. BTW, I've never seen a complet listing of the Songshan Shaolin curriculam, nor do I think on exists.

Actually, where I've seen the most tantui practice in China is in the modern Wushu circles.

And KL, poem posters wouldn't work because we all have different poems. Especially for tantui.

[NorthernShaolin]

Kung Lic,

You stated:
"like i said, I was taught to perform the set at a slower to moderate speed, but I can extrapolate the martiality from the set.

In the school I was at, the form is used as an introductory set to the core sets of BSL. Same as Lien Bo Chuan.

The BSL core sets I was taught, I was taught to perform at full speed and power and fluidity."

Normally I do not like to suggest to people how they should practice but with Tam T'ui, it was at one time a stand alone style and many people used it for combat. For example Huo Yu Chia, the founder of Ching Wu, used Tam T'ui techniques when he fought, even though his main style was Mi Tsung.

We all know the merits of Tam T'ui and unfortunately because it has been absorbed into many style's and school's curriculums, it is taught as a basic platform before learning other sets and thus instructions are often given to perform it slowly or at a moderate speed.

In the beginning stages of one's lessons in MA, yes do it slow because it is a method of learning the different chagnes in the horse stances but later, one must perform it just as fast as the other sets such as NSL sets. Only when performing Tam T'ui at a fast pace will one get the true flavor of Tam T'ui instead of a mechanical feeling one get when it is done at a slow or moderate speed.

[r.(shaolin)]

---
NorthernShaolin wrote:
"Tam T'ui, it was at one time a

[GeneChing]

I remember watching monk Shi Xinghao teach a class once. He was instructing a student in some basic kicking line drills, shaolin jibengong, not unlike tantui. The student asked "Should I do it fast?" Xinghao snapped back "OF COURSE!"

With the exception of Taiji and a few other odd internals, kungfu has to be done fast. When learning it, you might practice it slowly to get the mechanics, but what enemy is going to stand around and wait to be hit? Hit fast! Hit at full power! Getting faster and stronger what it's all about. You got to keep in mind that we are often taught tantui as beginners, so we are taught to do it slowly because we are beginners. But once we get into an intermediate stage, we go fast. Similarly at Lam Kwoon, we teach all the kicks to be straight leg kicks so beginners get the stretch and improve their flexability. But once the legs open up, the students learn to add more snap (or flick) to make them faster and more powerful. In essence, we teach everyone to their own level. The lessens change depending at what stage you are on.

Tantui is an awesome form, packed with great applications. It's a little boring, since line drills tend to be so, but line drills lay the critical foundation. I got a lot of sparring milage out of the handwork in line 5 and 7, that's such a fine combo.

[David Jamieson]

ok, i've tried it fast and I will admit I like it!

hmmmmm...he said.

4 and 6 are intersting at full speed, down low and up real fast.

feels like coming out of the first tornado into the double punch in moi fah except with a twist in the hips.

peace

[GeneChing]

There is a slow way to work tantui. The wushu people do it a lot. You take each strike pose and hold it for five breaths. Being wushu, the stance are held extremely deep. You still move really fast in between, but freeze and hold at the strikes - including the kicks. That means you hold your leg up in the air for five breaths. Of course, non-wushu people would probably say that's ridiculous for combat (same is true for holding the punch extended and we all do that a lot) but it's holy murder on the legs. Great conditioning. Tantui has it's roots in cha quan as does wushu, so it's not surprising that the wushu people have a lot of ways to work it.

[Dronak]

I think I didn't realize this was here when I was reviewing older topics after being away for a while. I hope bringing it up again isn't a problem. My main question right now is how alike are the tan tui routines? Not to each other of course, but to ones in a different style. I see mainly 10 and 12 routines being talked about. Are some of the routines in them identical? Are routines similar overall, but with some differences in the movements? I'm curious because I finally got a copy of _Ten Routine Spring Leg_ by Ma Zhenbang, Chinese Kung-Fu Series 6. I was hoping it would have the same ten routines that we're learning (though we've only done the first five so far). It looks like the routines are very similar, but there are differences in the movements. I also found some short articles describing routines 1-5 in the YMAA Newsletter archives (look on http://www.ymaa.com/). They look similar, too, but again they appear to have some differences in movements from the way I was taught them. I think there are some differences between those articles and the book, too. So I'm kind of wondering how important these smaller differences really are. Can anyone provide some additional information for me?

[NorthernShaolin]

Dronak,

I think it is not how the little difference between the Tan T'ui sets are important (because that is really a matter of interpretation by the individual) but what each row is attempting to teach the student, i.e., the essence of each row which is found in the lyrics.

There is no right or wrong way amongthe various Tan T'ui sets because tan t'ui is a very old style and thru the years it has been taught to a varity of people who will interprete move differently and will make small changes to imprint their ideas into the set for the next generation.

[Dronak]

Yes, I suppose that's true, NorthernShaolin. I guess the spirit/essence of the form is more important than the exact movements in it. Our teacher never gave any real explanation of them to us, none of these lyrics as you're calling them. We just learned them as basically short practice routines and we usually include them as part of our classes. The essence of each tan tui routine is essentially the same despite differences in some of the movements then? Like if you have 10 routines, routine 1 is always trying to teach the same basic concept even if you don't perform it in exactly the same way as someone else? If that's the case, then I will be able to use the lyrics posted here and ones in the book I have to get a better idea of the real purpose of the tan tui routines. By trying to keep that in mind, I can hopefully make my practice of them more meaningful than just treating it as some practice drill. BTW, if you want the names of the routines and the "folk song" for them from the book I have, just say so and I'll copy them out for you.

[Joe Mantis]

I didn't read the whole thread but hopefully can contribute...

Unfortunately I don't speak or read Chinese....But

I have heard from those who do that the poems for the sets rhyme. In a sense they are like a little song.

If we go back to our childhood we can remember nursery rhymes because of their sing-song style.

Naturally it would be easy to remember "moves" or techniques that go along with the song.

If you doubt... try singing "I'm a little teapot..." and do the motions. LOL

peace to all

[Joe Mantis]

A quick question....

Are there Northern and southern style of Tam tui?

Also is there a difference between "springy leg" and others?

I have heard a few different things but am searching for more info.

thanks.

[GeneChing]

My experience with different tan tui versions is that the first 4 lines are pretty standard, but then things start to break down after that. It makes sense given the nature of transmission. You learn the first lines first, so you probably work them the most, and they stick.

One of my dear old friends, Eric Ishii (who passed away recently) was a mantis stylist and collected beng bu versions. Beng bu, like tan tui, is a fundamental form and there are tons of versions. He claimed he had around 50 different versions, and he kept them all since he felt they all had something to offer. I imagine you could take the same strategy for tan tui, if you were so inclined.

[GeneChing]

I'm working on translating the Tan Tui lyrics for Master Zhang Lingmei, who learned Cha from Grandaster Pang Lingtai (one of the few recognized 9 duan holders in China). It's a Ten Road Tan Tui. Here's the first draft of my translation of Master Zhang's lyrics. I find it interesting that the roads are broken down into separate lyrics within the roads, instead of just one lyric phrase for the whole road. It's very similar to the BSL version on the whole, except a few notable variations such as no jumping kicks for road nine and some side kicks instead of heel kicks in road eight. It also has some diagonal steps into attacks for nine and ten.

First Road
Beginning Posture
Feet Together, Chamber Fists
1. Bow Stance, Punch with Fists
2. Bow Stance, Hook with Left Elbow
3. Bow Stance, Right Uppercut
4. Bow Stance, Hammer Fist
5. Right “Springing” Kick
6. Bow Stance, Punch with Fist
7. Bow Stance, Hook with Right Elbow
8. Bow Stance, Left Uppercut
10. Left “Springing” Kick
12. Bow Stance, Press Palms
13. Feet Together, Punch with Fist
28. Bow Stance, Flash the Palm
29. Horse Stance, Supporting Palm
30. Feet Together, Salute
Ending Posture

Second Road
2-1 Twist Stance, Brush Hand and Punch
2-2 Right “Springing” Kick and Punch
2-3 Left “Springing” Kick and Punch
Ending Posture

Third Road
3-2 Right Empty Stance, Planting Fist
3-3 Bow Stance, Wheel Hammer Fist
3-7 Right Empty Stance, Planting Fist
Ending Posture

Fourth Road
4-4 Horse Stance, Horizontal Blocking Palm
4-5 Cross Stance, Brushing Hand
4-6 Bow Stance, Palm Strike
Ending Posture

Fifth Road
5-1 Twisted Bow Stance, Block Punch
5-5 Horse Stance, Pressing Elbow
Ending Posture

Sixth Road
6-3 Bow Stance, Horizontal Cutting Palm
6-4 Half-squat Stance, Brushing Hand
6-5 Bow Stance, Pushing Palm
6-6 Bow Stance, Pressing Elbow
6-8 Bow Stance, Hooking Hand and Pushing Palm
Ending Posture

Seventh Road
7-2 Bow Stance, “Beat the Drum” Punch
7-3 Bow Stance, Block Punch
Ending Posture

Eighth Road
8-3 T Stance, Supporting Palm
8-4 Left Side Kick
8-6 Right “Springing” Kick and Punch
8-7 Resting Stance, Crossing Hands
8-13 Right Side Kick
Ending Posture

Ninth Road
9-3 Knee Lift, Crossing Hands
9-4 Step Forward, Blocking Palm, Right Heel Kick
9-5 Bow Stance, Pushing Palms
Ending Posture

Tenth Road
10-1 Bow Stance, Blocking Punch
10-2 Horse Stance, Elbow Block
10-3 Knee Lift, Hanging Hook
10-4 Step Upward, Pressing Palm
10-5 Spearing Palm Hand, Right Arrow “Springing” Kick
10-6 Step Upward, Arcing Palm
10-11 Spearing Palm Hand, Left Arrow “Springing” Kick
10-14 Feet Together, Chamber Fists
Ending Posture

[ngokfei]

making the big bucks now gene

sorry to say thats nothing new, just a description of the techniques/movements in each row.

Good info though, especially for students to remember. *love those antique names*


How about some lyrics for the Shaolin Temple Sets?

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi gene and shaoshishan,
Gene you wrote: "At Shaolin, I've only seen one version of tantui by one of the students of Zhu Tianxi (a layman disciple and folk master in nearby Zhengzhou.) It was a 24 line."

From what I understand, Zhu Tianxi was a student of Shi Degen who was a student of Wu San Lin (1875 to 1970) who was taught by his father, Wu Gulun (1831 to 1914).
Is the 24 section Tan Tui done by Zhu Tainxi similar to the 12 section Tan Tui as practiced by the Ging Wu? and if it is, which lines?

r.