Today grappers vs today internal martial artist what would be your strategy

[blacktaoist]

Ok guys, Its friday I just got paid, So I said to myself what the hell let me start another mind thinking opinionated thread.....LOL


A lot of internal martial artist today, think that they will never go to the ground in a sparring situation or even real fight. Most on FKO think that all they have to practice is push hands and they will be able to utilize just stick and follow to stop any attack.

Ok fine, thats just one method of the internal martial arts that any internal boxer can try to utilize. But stick and follow is not only a Tai Chi method.

Many other external martial arts utilize stick and follow, they just have their own fighting characteristics in utilizing stick and follow theory in a fighting situation.

Most interal martial artist don't practice any form of groundfighting, because like always most think that they will never go to the ground if their following the concepts and theories of their style.

But lets say you met a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter, that is good at taking their opponents to the ground, And if you don't know by now, these guys can stick and follow. Now you have a opponent in front of you that utilize the same theory, but the only difference between you and your opponent is, your opponent major objective is to take you down to the ground to utilize his game of stick and follow and hopefully put a head lock, neck crank or arm bar to finish you off.

What strategy with you utilize to deal with a aggressive grappling master tactician some one like Frank shamrock, ken shamrock, or Bas Rutten.

And for you internal practitiiners that say size don't matter, I like to know your strategy interpretation, of how you utilize your internal method to finish off some one like Mark coleman. You need more then just stick and follow to win a victory over this man. But the first thing is you have to stop him from taking you to the ground, And this is what this thread is all about.....

grappers vs today internal martial artist............

[Water Dragon]

There's a lot of similarity in the sticking/following/yielding etc. What is different is how you move and generate power. On the ground, your hips act like the legs and become the root. The center moves from the Dan Tien to the center of the chest. IMO, You need to spend some time learning the specifics of how to move on the ground. Internal training helps alot, but I don't think it is sufficient without learning the ground game.

[Phantom Menace]

Internal martial artist would get killed without devoting a considerable amount of time in learning how grapple. My strategy would be to train in jiu jitsu, catch wrestling, sambo, judo, and greco roman. These NHB fighters you mentioned are also excellent strikers. So, I would spend an equal amount of time training in western boxing and muay thai. I would also get into a hardcore conditioning regimen. Of course I'm doing all of this and at the same time still learning my IMA. Riiiiggghhhttt....

Basically an internal martial artist has no chance in hell to beat any of the names you mentioned in a NHB arena. Unless of course you are indepedently wealthy and can afford to train all day and have the natural born talent and aptitude to develop all the necessary skills.

Talking about fight strategy is useless without proper preparation. It's a mental exercise that borders on fantasy and leads nowhere. It's worrying about how to decorate a house and forgetting about the foundation.

[Water Dragon]

Why does everyone here insist on comparing their skillz or lack there of to PROFESSIONAL fighters? Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who's seen amateur NHB events. If you haven't seen them, GO It puts a lot of things into perspective.

[Phantom Menace]

I believe it's called illusions of grandeur. :-)

[blacktaoist]

proper preparationPhantom Menace-Talking about fight strategy is useless without proper preparation. It's a mental exercise that borders on fantasy and leads nowhere. It's worrying about how to decorate a house and forgetting about the foundation

BT)I be the first person to agree with you on your view point. But many internal practitioners today,feel that the only proper preparation is push hands and translation of ancient Chinese fighting theory and applications to deal with any opponent.

I like to know just , what method an internal practitioner would utilize if their never practice any form of groundfighting, Most internal practitioners just don't train in groundfighting, So i like to know just what technique they will utilize to keep them from going to the ground. Your opponent do have to be a professional grappler, he can be a nonprofessional just like us. But the only between me and you guys up here on KFO is I practice groundfighting with my internal method and with other martial artist I know.

So I know from my own experience that if you don't have and knowledge of how to fight on the ground, you are good as dead even in the hands of a nonprofessional grappler if he gets you on the ground, and you don't know and kind of ground controlling techniques like heard lock, arm bar, arm pit hold, neck crank, reclining guillotine, escape from frount mount...ect

Professional grappler or nonprofessional grappler, if you don't have any and kind of groundfighting knowledge if you hit the ground, no chi, push hands or fighting theory is coming to save you.

[DF]

BT wrote: I like to know just , what method an internal practitioner would utilize if their never practice any form of groundfighting, Most internal practitioners just don't train in groundfighting


It is not just internal practioners ( my opinion is there is no such thing as internal/external practioners, but that is another story) but a problem that exist in most if not all KF practioners. Most KF styles base on rooting for generation of power, etc. Once that rooting is gone, it is like fish on dry land. I have address this concern to a lot of the " masters" but still none had provided a satisfactory answer. The most simple answer as many had suggested is to cross train but if that is the only solution then one must question the effectiveness of kf and our respective styles.

I don't really have an answer as far as how to go against a grappler or a thai fighter, etc. To me a fight is a fight, the opponent is a human just like you and I. He/she can be hurt and kill just like you and I can in battle. The mind set is most important both in combat and in training. If we don't have confidence in our techniques then it will never work. If a grappler doesnot believe he can take you down, he cannot win.
I think it is important to be aware and familiar with all ranges of fighting from stand up ranges to ground fighting. But at the end of the day, it is better to be master in one then half ass in all.

DF

[blacktaoist]

DF)( my opinion is there is no such thing as internal/external practioners, but that is another story)

BT)What up DF, I agree with you on your view point. My opinion is there is no external or internal just different martial art methods that fighting characteristics fundamental principles are deifferent.

[DF]

BT, how are things ? Did brother Chris tell you the conversation I had awhile back with an Internal stylist, lol. Man, folks has to learn to keep it real, this is an art of war.

DF

[Wu-Xing]

(BT)What strategy with you utilize to deal with a aggressive grappling master tactician some one like Frank shamrock, ken shamrock, or Bas Rutten?
etc

only sticking and following sounds like internal artisits always wait for the other guy to attack and then try counter.how about we get the first strike in and become the aggresor?

You cannot be the best at everything so instead of trying to train everything and spreading your forces too thinly , why not train in NOT being taken down in the first place?

And why is it internal practitioners are being asked how they would deal with a BJJ guy on the ground? why isnt it how a BJJ guy would deal with one of us standing up? before he gets a chance to put his hands on us and try take us down?

[Prairie]

Today's IMAs would, for the most part, get creamed by grapplers. I believe this is so because of a different level of intensity. Grapplers train against people who are trying things fast and hard.

The taiji that I'm used to tends toward stand up grappling. That said, we don't practice with much intensity - however we're all low level students just trying to learn the basics of proper mechanics. Competancy with taiji against any other martial art (including "grappling") will require exposure to high intensity application training and sparring first.

I'll expand my original opinion. For the most part, the modern neijia person would get creamed by a practitioner of any other martial art.

Geez... I must have had some poor experiences.

[Wu-Xing]

>Today's IMAs would, for the most part, get creamed by grapplers. I believe this is so because of a different level of intensity. Grapplers train against people who are trying things fast and hard.

I train xing yi quan, we train hard and fast.

>The taiji that I'm used to tends toward stand up grappling. That said, we don't practice with much intensity

if by intensity you mean intent, then no matter what MA you do you will never win a fight.

> - however we're all low level students just trying to learn the basics of proper mechanics.

thats fair enough, no need for intent at that time.

> Competancy with taiji against any other martial art (including "grappling") will require exposure to high intensity application training and sparring first.

ok, so once you get that will you then have some faith in what your doing?

>I'll expand my original opinion. For the most part, the modern neijia person would get creamed by a practitioner of any other martial art.
>Geez... I must have had some poor experiences.

Yeah, you must have ,to hold such a dull outlook on what you train....sad really.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Sorry, a double post.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

I have to agree with blacktaoist that if you don't have experience on the ground then you will likely get creamed if it goes there with an opponent who has experience.

The question blacktaoist asked was "what strategy to use with an agressive grappler? "

For me the first thing is the standing contact, to attempt to prevent it going to the ground. I have been taught to use the internal arts as being based on mid-range grappling skills and short expressions of power. If a person wants to apply agressive kinetic force they must cross the mid-range. strikers prefer to launch their weapons from longer ranges and to cross the mid-range with the limbs. Grapplers prefer to cross the mid-range with their bodies to close to close range. So, absorb and stick to strikers to keep them from staying out at long range where they are most comfortable (this speaks to the "what about a Muay Thai fighter?" thread). Expand and roll grapplers to keep them out from close range where they are most comfortable.

However, this is simply defensive strategy, the opportunities owning the mid-range give are chances for short expressions of power. With control of the mid-range it is often possible to completely disable the positive alignment of the opponent's structure (and this is giving them the great benefit of the doubt that their structure was good in the first place, something I have found to be rarely true of any style of martial artist). Once their structure is compromised then it creates lines of weakness for sharp explosions of force. Misalignments across joints can be places of weakness that have to bear the load of the force and can easily result in muscle tears and even explosive dislocations and ruptures of joint capsules (study contact sports injuries to see what I'm talking about).

As well, during the fraction of a second that the opponent is recovering their alignment you can hit with short power. I have found that you can be quite accurate in the mid-range. The more anatomy and vital areas you know then the more chances your hitting wil be effective.

Lets assume that your don't own the mid-range and you go to ground. I feel that good tuishou and roushou skills are extremely useful here, especially if your push-hands has been trained realistically and not as some idealized search for softness that ignores the full range of energetic possibilities (its about Yin and Yang after all. A cloud-like touch is marvelously subtle, but without lightning its just damp air).

I once saw Sam Masich work for an hour with a international level Judoka explaining how Tuishou related to groundwork. I paid the exchange my full attention and even took notes as it went on.

[As an aside, Sam began martial arts as a Judoka under the coaching of Brian Gallagher. Brian comes from a real Judo family having produced several provincial and national champions. As well Brian studied Yang style with Raymond Chung.)

Sam showed the Judoka how when the opponent tried to close up that Beng/expansion could keep them out and how when they tried to open out Song/closing could keep them in. Sam stayed quite relaxed and din't seem to have to struggle and the Judoka was gasping for breath whenever they tried to exert. Sam used many aspects of skill derived directly from Tuishou, such and rollIng, transfering, pivoting and exchanging. Not to mention receiving.

Later on I began to use these same ideas when I engaged on the ground. As well, I got the idea of matching and adding energy to the opponent from my Chen Tuishou training with Eric Tuttle. So when I'm on the ground and the grappler is working his devious skills I find a weakness in the structure (I find it because I have matched their energy/force), then I add energy/force to that weakness. I usually look for a hypertension in the lower ribs or hypochondium region to add to. Basically I try to add power to their diaphragm to interfere with their breathing. I spiral into or out of centre, I shrink/expand/twist with my waist to add the power. I'll often open one side and close the other to accentuate the imbalance in the opponent's body. Once they begin to weaken due their impaired oxegenation, I start to allow other mid-range grappling opportunities and short power to manifest, since this is the area where my skills are dominant.

If none of this works I get my ass wupped and have to tap out or call 911.

[blacktaoist]

DF I'm doing all right, Right now I do a lot of security work for some companies, so I don't have that much time to teach any more, But I still have time to practice, most of the time I practice on my job sites.

Did brother Chris tell you the conversation I had awhile back with an Internal stylist, lol. Man, folks has to learn to keep it real, this is an art of war.

BT) I talk to Ben a few days ago, at the time he was upset about that Big Ron thing that was going on. But as you know Big Ron turn out to be a illusion. Man there are a lot of nuts on the internet. Anyway DF he didn't get to tell me the story of your conversation with the internal guy.....LOL

As you know there are a lot of so called internal practitioners, that think their going to develop some kind of extraordinary Chi power, and high level fighting skills, from just practice forms and push hands all day.

When I first got in to the So called internal Martial arts, I myself use to think that the internal martial arts was better then the so called external martial arts. I to use to just practice ba gua Zhang forms and push hands for hours thinking this was the best way to reach a high level in fighting.

One day I met this guy name stanley who is a judo and jiu jitsu practitioner, and was learning Yin Ba Gua from my sifu Chen Xiaoping. The day I met him me and him was talking about martial arts and their many methods, Back then I had a very low opinion of the so called external martial arts. That day my sifu, ask me have I been practicing my low ma pu, I lie and said yes.

My sifu then told me to spar with stanley, Like I said back then I had no real hardcore sparring experience, but stanley did and boy did he show me the light the hard way. there was not time to think just react, but I was no match for stanley, he got me down to the ground fast and put me in put me in so many locks and arm bars that if you were there, you think he was doing a groundfighting instructional video on my ass. From That day on I never look down on other martial art styles.

A while later, stanley had a go at my Sifu, no matter what stanley try to do , he could not get my sifu, to the ground, I then ask my sifu how come stanley couuld not get him on to the ground. My sifu said because of his root. He said the reason stanley got me down to the ground is because I had not real root. With out root your Kung Fu is nothing.

So the bottom line is practice your Ma Bu stance low to develop a powerful root. Today many internal martial artists take the easy way out by practicing a high ma bu stance(to easy) thinking their going to develop a powerful root. There is no way a practitioner is going to develop a power root by training high ma bu stances.

Anyway my opinion is, if a Internal martial artists or any Chinese martial art practitioner train in the traditional method of stance training, it will be very, very, hard for a grappler to take a internal practitioner to the ground.

My sifu view is, a grappler that trys to tackle, is just giving a big opportunity for a internal martial artist to strike them, he said that one must just try to stay calm and natural to see their opportunity and then utilize the most direct techniques (plus proper ma bu and other stance training) will prevail, no matter what a grappler fighting style. One must fight their game not the opponents.

I myself respect my sifu viewpoint, but I myself train in grounfighting because I just like the workout it gives a person, and I love the ground controlling techniques.

I viewpoint is today internal practitioners train in the old traditional conditioning combat methods of the ancient Chinese taoist boxing masters, there is no way in hell a grappler will prevail.

Just something to think about.

Peace, practice and live long.