Today grappers vs today internal martial artist what would be your strategy

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks for clearing that up nice to see someone thinking in the same sort of arena

[Shooter]

Esteban, wow. Next, you'll be trying to tell people that TCC has ground-fighting adaptability in it's movement and structure principles.

[Phantom Menace]

>>Esteban, wow. Next, you'll be trying to tell people that TCC has ground-fighting adaptability in it's movement and structure principles.

hey shooter...It does! Too bad you don't know it... I'm not telling either.

[Shooter]

Phantom Menace, c'mon man...help a brother out.

Nice to see people evolving toward a broader view of TCC's potential. When I started broaching these ideas on KFO more than a year ago, I had to apprise the legends here like Black Jack and Knifefighter, et al, of TCC's versatility. Lots of IMA peeps were as opposed to what I've been doing with TCC as those guys were in their refusal to acknowledge the possibilities. Now they have no choice...they gotta recognize! HA!

[Mark M]

The first art I learned was wrestling. I started when I was 12 and eventually became pretty good. When I went to college in 1969 I became friends with a guy from Japan who was a Black Belt in Judo and Karate. He apparently studied at the head school in Tokyo. He was very good, I actually saw him kick some wiseass big guy's butt pretty easily. Not sparring but a real fight. Anyway I was in the gym working out and he was there doing his Kata and he saw I was interested so he started showing off a bit and was throwing punches and kicks at me stopping right before he hit me. He was proud of his stuff and he had every right to be because he was that good. He asked me what I would do if I was attacked like that. I said let's try it, I honestly forget what it was that he tried, but I closed on him and used a "duck under" got behind him, back heeled him and tied him up on his back. He could not get out. He had no comprehension of what happened to him. I let him up and all he could say was " what you do"? After I explained it to him he realized where he was deficient and asked to learn wrestling. I eventually taught him some wrestling and he taught me some Judo throws. He did get even with me. He started a Judo team and we had a match against the local Airforce base. He put me against a brown belt and I promptly got tossed around. As I was getting choked out I was looking at him, like OK what the hell am I supposed to do now, die? He was laughing his ass off because he never told me how to tap out. Whenever you're going against a good grappler you can't let him close. He'll put his chin down and maybe take a couple of shots coming in, if you don't take him out then, you'll be in a world of hurt. Of course this is just my opinion.

[les paul]

Shooter
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 1970
Location:
Posts: 241
Phantom Menace, c'mon man...help a brother out.

Nice to see people evolving toward a broader view of TCC's potential. When I started broaching these ideas on KFO more than a year ago, I had to apprise the legends here like Black Jack and Knifefighter, et al, of TCC's versatility. Lots of IMA peeps were as opposed to what I've been doing with TCC as those guys were in their refusal to acknowledge the possibilities. Now they have no choice...they gotta recognize! HA!


Response:

It's also nice to see people who understand the potential of internal arts.

Although, I would say that your view of Taijiquan isn't new, more like correct would be a better description.

Reminds me of some of those old historic stories of Chinese wrestlers locking hands with Taiji boxers and admitting defeat after little contact.

I think the actual truth in some of those stories probably involved a whole lot of contact by both parties.

Tajiquan can be very nasty and lethal martial art.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The story of the Taiji master and the wrestler was about Chen Fake and Shen Shan. They were introduced at a martial arts contest in Beijing. Shen Shan asked what a Taiji player would do against a wrestler and Chen is reported to have said "Can one always choose his enemy?" Chen then said while he did not know wrestling he had watched it and so joined with Shen Shan's arms in the usual way for Shuai Jiao matches. As soon as they touched Shen Shan released his grip and they laughed. At the time no one knew they had actually contested. Two days later Shen Shan showed up to honour Chen with gifts and related that as soon as they had touched his feet were frozen to the ground and he could not move.

Hong Junshen told this story and he was an eye witness.

[les paul]

Yea, I remember reading that!

That account is probably one of the more well known out side mainland China.

There are many more that have the same theme with all internal styles.

I don't have that much of a problem with wrestlers (using xingyiquan, although anyone who has met me tell's me I'm well grounded in Chin-na)

The animals have a fair amount of leverage based attacks etc.

But I think Taiji is based even more on this (or can be)

This theme points to many misconceptions by the novice.

That is misconceptions like "taiji can't defend against a wrestlers."

My knowledge of Taijiquan is less than my Xingyi, however, I imagine a well skilled person in the use of push hands and Chin-na (as all highly skilled Taiji men are) would pose a problem to many wrestlers.

I think a greco roman wrestler would be a great sparring partner for cross training someone's taijiquan. (or Xingyi for that matter)

I love sparring with wrestlers etc (it opens your eyes to what you can do with your style in that area )

Sometimes you get those jujitsu neophytes on this news group who don't have very high views of what people do here.

It's to bad because there is a lot to the internal arts.

[Leimeng]

~Hsing I and Bagua both contain numerous throws, joint locks, and other sort of nifty close quarters fighting techniques.
~Learning the general principles associated the internal arts and diligent practice of the exercises, changes, and two man drills should provided a very good foundation for dealing with a grappler.
~I have alwas been under the impression that we (at least in my training environment,) have been training for the possibility of dealing with a grappler.
~The internal arts as a whole possess the tools neccessary to deal with the person that feels the need to take it to the ground. ~With this in mind, we need to just start to practicing and training like we would fight.
~Did any of that make sense?


Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[circle_walker]

I'm new here, but this seems like a facinating topic. I think everyone makes many good points. I first want to admit that I am going to largely by talking out of my @$$ here, as I am still very new to the internal arts. However, I just wanted to contribute an observation. While looking at an internal website: www.blacktaoist.com, I saw an individual use an outside single palm change to avoid being pushed down to some subway tracks. The movement I had been taught before, but seeing that application opened my mind up alot. I was instantly reminded of the Mexican matdores' circling to avoid a charging bull. I don't think most grapplers, or most m/a s for that matter will be as fast or as powerful as a charging bull. Now a lessthanbeleivable but nonetheless true testimonial, also involving a bull. My mother in her fourties was charged by a young(not full grown, but by no means harmless)bull. She was trapped in a cattle pen eith the bull between her and the door. She had nowhere to run to. The animal charged her and she punched it right between the eyes. The bull dropped to it's knees it's tongue rolled out of it's mouth, and then it fell over. It was knocked unconcious, and later recovered. My mom's hand was red and swollen for 3 days after. I know this sounds unbeleivable, but it did happen. She has no m/a training, but almost supernatural instincts that I have seen her demonstrate in a fight a few times. Aside from this sounding like a load from the aforementioned bull, I just wanted to illistrate how a well placed strike whether luck or skill; can stop a charging opponent. Reguardless of size, or apparently even species. I appologize if this sounds strange, and I hope that this insight provides more than comic releif.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Respect to your Mom circle_walker. Punched out a bull, awesome!