Southern Fist the best?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Mysteri,

I'm very surprised that you said that most of the Northern Stylist you've fought were like Tae Kwan Do. If that's your experience, then I won't be surprised that peasant kung fu is sufficient to take them out. Tae Kwon Do (the sports version which is most common) is about point scoring, so if you play outside those rules, you'll have a good chance of winning.

This would also suggest that you have a poor knowledge of Northern Kungfu. Good fighting styles like Hsing I, Piq Gua, Mantis etc don't emphasis on high kicks. The styles deal well with medium to short range - hence the large arm movements involved with throwing actions. So you can safely assume that if you come up with a Northern styles ( not some tae know do look a like), you could be fighting point blank toe to toe, body to body. Northern stylist are very comfortable and love fighting at this range.

As for mobility, Northerners emphasis a lot on angling. Speaking on say 8 step mantis or 6 harmonies, there is a lot of twisting to change one's direction of attack and at close range, they use these movements to leg trap or roll with the punch so to speak. Same concepts applied in Ba Gua. As for 7*PM, people learn angling and strategy very early on in the training program - a lot of strategic insersions and depending on the response, the mantis practitioner can at all times modify the strategy. A major advantage of Northern systems is the generalised format undepinning its theories compared to the South.

In terms of Southern systems like Wing Chun, sure it has short punches, but that is still considered to be medium range in the Northern context. Foot work in South systems is very ridgit compared to the North. - That's particular the case for Wing Chun and Southern Mantis. But I agree, Southern sytles train for strong stances - and it would be foolish to throw something like a tornado kick at a southern practitioner. I guess you could have easily done what you described in your ealier post - but that's a no brainer. Any fool could have done the same!

Southern styles have a strong emphasis on breaking - like break the ribs, break a leg, break this break that. These skills are useless in a real fight and the training of these only results in injury to yourself.

If you try to break something, your connection to the target will be "Non-analytic" at the moment of impact. Easy to do with a stationary target, but not when the target is moving. That is a major flaw with southern kung fu. The solution space is very narrow.

As for the North, they try to connect at a tangent and discover as much about the "Vectors" of the opposing system. With this information, it is flitered through the gneralized theories, giving an out put of the appropriate course of action to the northern practitioner. The training program of northern systems is designed to make this process higly automated with a healthy does of creativity in "solving the problem". The design of the solution also is very instinctive.

So yes, Northern systems are stylish in the cold efficiency at disposing opponents but not the fancyful high kicks.

I hope this gives you a better perspective on how your kung fu rates against the Northern systems.

Maximus Materialize!

[doug maverick]

we are talking about external gung fu not xing yi tai chi or bai gua(witch i study now) just because your kung fu no good doesn't mean you should rag on other southern styles, i remmeber a story in sun lu tang's book about xing yi that talked about a southerner beating all of ching ting hua's students except for sun lu tang. so ah dude i really don't think southern gung fu is that bad. i wonder what bad things you have to say about hung gar.

[bean curd]

ego,

your examples of northern and southern are so out of wack its a wonder you actually understand what you wrote.

to say that north has one thing and south has another shows a complete ignorance of either concepts.

i must have missed what you do, so can you tell me what style you play if any??

also why don't you go into specifics instead of being so general on your comments on north and south.

also do you practice xing yi, from your comments just written you don't have a clue on this style.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Peacemaker,

That post was in response to Mysteri about some examples between Northern & Southern kung fu. I don't think of things as either being internal or external. I look more for efficiency and whether the training program is practicle in improving the students ability to fight. The "robustness" of the system is important because real fights can happen at any place any time. I've got nothing bad to say of Hung Gar or any style for that matter. What I say is from my observation.

Beancurd,

I'm sorry if it didn't make much sense. i guess I explian things a little unorthodoxly. Ok I tend to see fights as a problem with many dimensions. For a multi-dimension problem (in mathemathics) usually analytic solutions have a higher chance of breaking down. But if you use certain numerical methods the solutions would be stable. Mathemathical modelling is my background and I guess the Northern systems (if taught correctly) is conceptually consistent with how I would build and optimise a numerical model.

Maximus Materialize!

[mysteri]

I will not pretend that i'm not the slightest bit impressed by your knowledge of kung fu. i am even more impressed how you can go deep enough to relate mathematics into kung fu, which not many people can do or even understand, though i understood every bit of waht you said in your reply. do not get me wrong, i'm not here to bash you. it is just when you try to tell a southern stylist that his kung fu is inferior, he cannot help but to be offended. i will also not pretend that i have such a great knowledge of northern kung fu styles because i don't. again, i'm just expressing my observations and experiences. i am familiar with hsing-i, pi qua, and mantis and i know that they do not emphasize kicks. hsing-i alone has a very powerful close range game as well as pi qua. i know most northern mantis styles emphasize stepping and trapping. but once again, as i have made a general statement about northern styles, i am simply reiterating the way your comments came across to me. it's my belief that you made your comments without much knowledge of southern kung fu styles in the latter stages of training. as with jow ga, if you're familiar with it, it consists of only the most practical and effective techniques of hung ga, choy ga and bak sil lum. you seem to know about hung ga. the choy family style (not choy li fut) is known for its swift, complex footwork and kicking/leg techniques. it's also well know for it's grappling and groundfighting. in the early stages of my training, stepping was the basis from which everything else followed. if you don't have good stepping/mobility, then it will reflect negatively on your techniques. that is why the founder of jow ga searched to learn another style because hung ga halted much of his mobility in order to perform the techniques properly. also in the beginning of my training, firm yet soft bridge hands were emphasized. (like silk outside, like iron inside) so within a short amount of time in my system, one may be able to handle themself quite comfortable in a ypical street scenario. we actually have modified bridge hands from mantis which you know will control the opponent at all times and may easily turn into grappling, locking, and throwing techniques. i simply dropped a little bit of knowledge on you in case you didn't know that about my southern style. i will not disagree with you that some southern styles may seem crappy, but i could also name some northern styles which i can say are, too. if you know anything about my style, especially any major weaknesses, please let me know. otherwise i'm very comfortable and confident fighting any style with my diverse jow ga style. pax vobiscum.

[bean curd]

ego,

okay you like maths i like food, so i'll go with the food scenario, as they say in chinese, "live to eat, not eat to live".

your persception of the validity of north to south, i feel is askew, to some degree you are looking at them from an analytical perspective, nothing wrong with that, but it can blinker your perspective.

there was a eagle claw player many many years ago that used this perspective to explain the needs and usage of the various styles in gung fu.

"martial arts is like a smorgasboard, there is much food on the table, yet at different times in life, ones tastes change. to only look at what they like at that particular time is to miss the depth and value of each and every art."

"some will love a type of food always, others will change their taste quite often, while others will grow to appreciate the exotic foods, it is here that the knowldege, depth and understanding of their chosen art and that of others will become more appreciated"

"there is a basic requirement of the body to live, these basic foods are essential to a good, strong, healthy body, to forget these foods will only be detremental to the player"

he does go on, but i am sure you understand where i am coming from and the points trying to be expressed.

the main point though, is just because one art looks from any perspective to be superior mearly because it has a university perspective, you undermine and give no respect to the junior schooling you first had.

it is true that some southern styles may appear basic, however from an external perspective of xing yi alone it looks very novice, yet the depth of the art is complicated, this goes for any art be it from the south or the north.

maybe you should put the math books down, and go have a really good yum cha, it may change your perspective

[This message was edited by bean curd on 05-19-01 at 07:09 PM.]

[NorthernMantis]

Ego-
shouldn't you be arguing with Rolls showing him that kung fu does work?I mean if your going to argue then do it for a good cause(no offense intened).

Remember, use your trolling powers for good and not for evil.Go ahead show Rolls what kung fu is made of.

"Always be ready"

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Guy's I've heard of the name "Rolls" being mentioned. Who is it? why should i be speaking to that person? Although I'll be happy to discuss all matters of kung fu with Rolls.

I am not a troll.

As for food, I enjoy yum cha, but i would consider a smogersboard of yummies to be an unnecessary luxury in battle. I'll be content with basic neutrients like protene, carbohydrates, water, salt etc. it wouldn't matter if i have 36 different types of chinese tea or water in my canteen.

Maximus Materialize!

[NorthernMantis]

Basically Rolls is a troll who says that kung fu is full of crapp and that even tkd is better than kung fu (no offense to tkd people).He thinks it's a good type of dance but not good for self defense.

He's made several challenges ,with no type of any kung fu knowledge comparing it to karate,and never met up to the challenge,one of those being to a reputable kung fu school.He goes by the name of Ralek now.

Sounds like you would be a good candidate to educate our ignorant friend.:D

"Always be ready"

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 05-20-01 at 12:40 PM.]

[bean curd]

well ego, like i first thought, there really isn't much point to getting a constructive discussion out of you, you have a very limited perspective.

as for basic food in battle, you don't, like gung fu have a clue on this, i'll tell you one thing you should put in your pocket and it's this,
in battle even the basics of food are a real luxury, LRP'S can be the worst tasting thing, but when you have them, it makes you feel like a king, especially when you haven't eaten for sometime.

it's like you perspective on gung fu, totally theoretical with no foundation at all!!!

as the an old boxing cannon says "you start with a ma and a kuen, at the end of your lifetime, it is this ma a kuen you will use, eveything else was just part of the journey!!"

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Northern Mantis,

Ok so I gather Rolls believes that kung fu is crap. But does that make him a troll? It is as much for some people on this forum to understand that others may have differing views as much as it is for them to know the effectiveness of good kung fu. I have seen many shoddy kung fu classes in my time and i can fully understand why some people perceive that kung fu is crap. I guess education goes both ways!

Bean Curd

i think you missed my point. What I'm saying is that the different types of food can be summerized into a few basic food groups. Just like it doesn't matter if you hit someone with a tiger claw, dragon claw, leapord paw, pheonix eye fiest and how ever number of hand configurations there are.

what matters is the basic strategies of combat. to some extent muey thai and western boxing covers them. I'm not saying that kung fu fights like boxing - in fact you don't because boxing is bound by a set of rules - kingfu's not. However, the basics like angling, timing, fient etc are common to all northern styles which is also apparent in "sports" combat like boxing.

Because the human body can only move in finite ways, there must be a set of generalized concepts that must be developed for good kung fu. That's why i disagree with the smogersboard concept. The objective of good kung fu is more simple that you make it out to be.

whereas, southern styles focus more on an "aspect" of combat. For example with Wing Chun, practitioners stick quite religiously to the "gate" theory. This would work in some instances, but it's useless if your opponent goes ape on you or use curved punches.

Southern sytles are not very adaptable in in my language non robust.

Maximus Materialize!

[NorthernMantis]

The guy challenged Tai Yim.No respect whatso ever.

"Always be ready"

[TAO YIN]

What?????

Eggo what the hell are you talking about? You said

"What Im saying is that the different types of food can be summarized into a few food groups. just like it doesn't matter if you hit someone with a tiger claw, dragon claw, leopard paw, pheonix eye fiest, and how ever number of hand configurations there are."

In the next paragraph, you said that the basic strategies like angling, timing, and feinting are really what matters???????????

I don't know why I am bothering but WAKE UP!!!!! Every one of the southern techniques you mentioned are basic, effective, deadly, etc! They can all be used as a BASIC STRATEGY of attack. See its like this, you can hit AT me with five different attacks, and all I have to do is pierce you once in the eye with a leopard paw or phoenix eye fist.

Another basic could be that you could kick and punch as hard at my head, torso, or legs as you wanted and all I have to do is get through your guard, Tiger Claw your neck with my left hand, dragon claw your skull with my right, and drop the horse all in one. In BASIC terms you attack AT me, I rush at you like a scared tiger, and then I claw, twist, and snap your neck apart while dropping to the floor. Nah, I would probably just tiger claw your neck and drop the horse, no need to use dragon claw.

If you are a Sifu of Southern Mantis you should be able to use it. If you are a Sifu of Southern Mantis you should understand that it uses angling, timing, and feinting. THESE ARE BASIC FIGHTING CONCEPTS REMEMBER! ALL SYSTEMS HAVE THIS! Are you that Kelvin dude??

Even though this is totally stupid, you tell me one northern stylist that beat Chun Lai Cheung, Lam Yui Gwai, oh nevermind I am not going to sit here and list names. EGO YOU KNOW S***. :p


TAO YIN :D

"With great power, be still"

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

victory would be so much easier.

Tao Yin,

Come on! hand configurtation cannot be described as a basic technique. Do you know it's verty difficult to ok someone in the eyes or break their necks - unless they are standing still or their one of the 3 stooges!

You've basically agreed with my point that Southern Kung fu techniques have limited applications - very specific in their application. Breaking something by striking it is non-analytic and I've expounded on the problems of that in the last post!

But you're on the money of what I would have done when I had practiced kung fu. That is to throw multiple hits at the target. eventually some will get through and those that don't will return valuable information about the "vectors" pertaining to the target. It'll be so funny seeing the opponent changing strategy from a leapord fist, then to a tiger claw, oh no wait maybe a dragon claw or was it a crane beak while getting pulverized by northern kung fu.

It would be very funny indeed. Don't you think?

Maximus Materialize!

[mysteri]

like you said, these techniques like the tiger claw, leopard paw, dragon claw, crane beak.. may all be ineffective in a fight... but when the southern stylist is properly trained, which many schools may not emphasize as they allow the average student to pass onto the next form, then of course these techniques automatically become obselete in a modern street fight. what about irom palm? a techniques which is in most southern systems. iron palm, iron shirt, iron finger.. any of these superior training techniques may kill someone in a modern street fight. so you say that a moving target is hard to hit? of course, i'll give you that. then we must take out any grappling/ chin na techniques of northern kung fu also. so northern styles like hsing-i and pa kua, which are internal styles may also only be useful if the practiconer is properly trained and has developed chi(and the other necessary energies) and sensitivity. what much is left? what else distinguishes northern styles from southern styles? you tell me this "superior strategy" of the north which makes northern styles so inferior because i've yet to be defeated by a northern stylist and my victories have been rather easy. so maybe the nothern styles you describe are overrated, of are only useful in the hands of a seasoned practiconer... as my point stands for southern styles... as my point stands for ANY martial system.

while i breathe, i hope..