How valuable is speed...

[NorthernMantis]

What about speed and proper techniqe? Without proper tachnique the speed is useless. It doesn't matter how fast people can punch. If the wrist is crooked then bye bye wirst and heloo pain and injury.

[omegapoint]

Mass=weight of matter (even light)
Velocity=speed
Power=Kinetic Energy
A little weight w/ high velocity=lots of chaos (ie:M16/AR15 .223 caliber bullet) or little bullet + lots of propellant (powder in casing)equates to "tumbling" projectile that wrex ****!

A bullet with a larger mass (say the AK47 which is >.300 caliber or ~7.5 mm) and high velocity (lots of powder to propel it) results in serious damage; even moreso than the M16 bullet. Results= small entrance wound and devastating exit hole with lots of penetrating damage.

Punching is very similar. If you are a strong puncher you have to have some speed for the impact force to really penetrate, especially without gloves which tend to spread the force over a wider surface area. If you are really fast with little mass, the speed of your punch can compensate for some lack of mass. If you have a lot of mass behind your punch, assuming you have good technique which includes whipping power or a "relaxed" arm (until impact), and you are fast also; look out!

Conversely, a heavy bullet with little powder to propel it (.32 and .38 caliber) has relatively little penetrating power compared to the higher velocity projectiles. The smaller the surface area affected = the least amount of dissipated energy. The original solution to this prob was the invention of high caliber, low velocity bullets like the .45. The power from a .44 mag or .45 comes from the sheer size of the projectile and not necessarily from the speed of it. The invention of the .375 mag takes care of that by offering a good sized bullet with more gunpowder in the casing. Speed and mass=hole in engine block.

GDA makes a good point when he says that he's not convinced that physics deals with punching. Physics covers all aspects of reality not just ballistics and such, and if the practitioner is maximizing efficiency and effectiveness of technique it applies to MAs as well. Most folks can't punch or kick effectively, even if they are training. Still, regardless of whether you know how to deliver your projectile (fists/hands, elbows, feet, knees) or not, the formula- 1/2 MV2 (V is squared)- applies. Knowing how to transfer your bodyweight from the ground up into the weapon (striking limb) takes years of practice. Torque plus hip rotation momentive power helps to deliver the mass to the payload. Also understand that the opponents force can be ( and usually is) used against him, so the variables of the targets velocity and mass at impact is crucial. Walking into a solid, fast, straight right sucks!

All things travel in an arc even light, and the more linear the trajectory of a projectile, the less energy loss there will be. A .44 mag is a force to be reckoned with, but its power (kinetic energy) diminishes greatly after traveling about 35 yards. Not enough velocity to keep the bullet aloft, and it travels in a less linear fashion as compared to higher velocity projectiles. So even hooks and such, are more effective if the path is more linear than arcing.

Relaxtion requires that the antagonistic muscle groups of the limb in question are not tensed when a strike is delivered. Many beginning martial artists use a lot of muscle in their punching. They tend to tense the biceps counteracting the momentive force delivered via the triceps and such. They are in effect "governing" their intent. All of these basic physics principles are commom sense. It doesn't take someone with a scientific aptitude or backgroung to "feel" them. It's the numbers and abrreviated words (variables and symbols in the equation) that people get twisted.

You know I don't have to spend my saturday night explaining these simple, but unknown or overlooked principles of kinetics. I'm confident in my physical and mental abilities so no worries people. These are not secrets per se, but "gems" that the avg. punch drunk ruffian would never figure out without years of trial and error, and even then maybe not (look at all the horrible gung fu guys, karateka, boxers and kickboxers out there-even a lot of K1 dudes).

So to reiterate: Speed is good. Mass can be beneficial. Speed+Mass=Kinetic Energy (power). Punch, kick, and grapple with relaxation (until execution of tech) then use explosive force at the instant of impact or execution. Then relax again. Tai Chi Chuan principles are 100% correct, as is the notion that softness overcomes hardness. Most Marticians progress from hard, to hard-soft, to soft with seemingly little energy expenditure as compared to a novice. Be like water (not to bite Bruce or nothin'), water breaks down rock into grains of sand. All this is done with the physical principal we are debating about. Easy and cheesy,like most things in life when YOU evaluate it honestly.

Happy training, and remember that knowLEDGE is power!!! Pax Americana!

[Sharky]

Done mate

[Julien]

ah, this is also very helpful

would anyone know how to increase wrist strength? (haha, masturbation jokes and such...)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.

lay your forearms along your thighs and lift dumbells or a barbell for a couple sets of a lot of reps. start with the outer forearms (thumbs down) and then do inner. you can really push weight with the inner forearms after you get used to it. i'm up to 70lbs at 3sets of 12 now wich is sadly half my body weight.

[Shooter]

Yes, relaxation certainly is the essense of Tai Chi's speed. One of the best ways to develop functional speed is to go very slowly, and relax through common tactical movement patterns. Speed is useless without proper timing. Timing and position are the essence of functional speed. Tai Chi is a study of some very special components of position and timing. Although many aspects of Tai Chi Chuan's totality are discovered independently, they have always been the Tai Chi way. Nothing new under the sun. It's all Tai Chi...

[Julien]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
wrist curls and reverse wrist curls.

lay your forearms along your thighs and lift dumbells or a barbell for a couple sets of a lot of reps. start with the outer forearms (thumbs down) and then do inner. you can really push weight with the inner forearms after you get used to it. i'm up to 70lbs at 3sets of 12 now wich is sadly half my body weight.

k man, i didn't understand that at all hehe

[Sharky]

why not?

[Julien]

the whole 70lbs and 3 sets of 12 with the forearms of the strength and stuff... confusing shiz.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

shooter ... . word

jul . .. i dont know how else to describe it man. you lay your forearms across your thighs . . . you'd be seated obviously . .. . your wrists should extend out past your knees at whatever distance is most comfortable for you. wrist curls are simply curling the weight in this position with your wrists. if you want to do reverse wrist curls, for outer foreamrs, simply reverse your grip. your thumbs will be facing down and you will be lifting the weight kunckles up. you can use dumbells or a barbell. i started with 10lb dumbell for reverse wrist curls ... single only so i could concentrate on the form ... and 35 for the wrist curls. i worked up to 55 for reverse and 70 for reg.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

insert a coma.

i'm up to 70lbs at 3sets of 12 now, wich is sadly half my body weight.

might read a little better without the now as well.

but i still don't see why you couldnt manage to catch the drift. you must be as ****ing stupid as i am.

[type01]

im not as experienced as most in this forum but the question i have to ask, from the posts i have read and from what i understand speed in martial arts is a key factor with it comes power, but power and speed is subject to loss due to poor fluidity,timing and technique as mentioned previously. And since most are studying martial arts and not physics wouldnt it be more logical and easier to train co-ordination and technique than training solely on speed and trying to be like water???

Does anyone know of training techniuqes to improve co-ordination ????

[DelicateSound]

OK man, follow the step by step instructions for a wrist-winder.


1) Take a dumbell pole, or anything like a broom handle in thickness. It should be about 20" long max.

2) Get some STRONG string and take about 2 metres of it. Make a loop and tie it onto the middle of the bar, and wind around a lot of slack.

3) Add some wights to the bottom [securely]

4) Now stand up, with the weights on the floor, the bar in your hands and the string slack. Now wind the bar round till you pull the weight up to the top. Both ways of curl [i.e. The bar will rotate opposite]




Sound easy enough?

[Merryprankster]

p=mv is incorrect. It's actually p=fv.

But that's immaterial.

Physics DOES describe a punch. It will describe any kind of movement, forces involved, elasticity and inelasticity, etc. You just have to take the measurements--and generally speaking such things vary from person to person. The equation would be so general as to be completely useless to all of us, and far too complicated in any event. But it COULD be done.

HOW the body moves is a function of kinesiology, etc.

And what shooter said--assuming proper technique, timing and structure, speed=power. But you have to go through a lot of proper repetitions to get to proper technique, timing and structure Now about the all tai chi part...

[joedoe]

Strictly speaking, all those equations are invalid for this discussion because they all refer to vector motion, which doesn't really occur in real life .