Gaining weight and internal martial arts

[bamboo_ leaf]

In most of these discussions on wt training and wt gaining I don’t see how one could train lifting something and then try and use real internal skill to make or lead some one to move. I think your time would be better spent learning how to relax or something more related to the IMA skill that you wish to acquire.

This is what I have found in my own studies; yes at one time I did the wt thing too. In search of more power. 90% of people that I have met really don’t understand inner power and making use of intent. Yes, it’s that hard! until you met a teacher or someone that really can express it then for most it remains a fantasy that they can’t believe in much less do.

this is why as some have said on this borad most IMA people really don't have the skills they feel they have.
this is why testing is very imprortant, not in the sense of winning but to really find out if you have true skills.

What would be more beneficial and what would it be training: picking an object up that weighs a couple of ounces and believing it weighs a couple of hundred pounds or picking something up that weighs a couple of hundred pounds. Some might say picking up something that weighs a couple of hundred pounds believing it weighs a couple of ounces. This I think is a mistake.


Even among old time TC players many still use force, why? Because they have been taught this way from the beginning. The beginning and end of your training is the non-usage of LI, when you can do this it opens up a whole different way of moving and applying your art.

I think it’s very important to have a clear idea of what and why you are training something. Will it affect your TC skills I don’t see how it could not. Introducing stress into either the body or mind will have some type of effect on your practice.


just some thoughts


david

[Daniel Madar]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf


What would be more beneficial and what would it be training: picking an object up that weighs a couple of ounces and believing it weighs a couple of hundred pounds or picking something up that weighs a couple of hundred pounds. Some might say picking up something that weighs a couple of hundred pounds believing it weighs a couple of ounces. This I think is a mistake.

Ever have breakfast, and you have a glass of OJ and a glass of milk... You are tired, and you pick up the milk and for some reason you think its OJ. Yuck, the horror of expectation.

to provide an alternative point of view... I lift weights.

I lift them to stay healthy as I get older. I dont lift them to get buff, or strong. I ride a bike to keep my cardio in condition, not to stay thin. I stretch to stay flexible, not to perform in exaggerated sexual positions.

[Zantesuken]

hahhahahahahahahaha stretch for kama sutra lololol
anyways lift weights, stretch, bike.
biking i guess is ok

weights, stretching you don't really need. stretching maybe but not weights

tai chi in itself will keep you healthy until you're old. if you also meditate and do standing posutres you will achieve flexibility cause you're muscles will be more 'obidient'. i know i sound stupid but that's the translation!

[bamboo_ leaf]

“exaggerated sexual positions”

okay, okay I give!!!

Only one question? What is wrong with exaggerated sexual positions?


david

[Zantesuken]

OHH now we all know what he practise tai chi for! ha ha ha haha

[CD Lee]

Origianlly posted by SMantis]

Cd, I'm sorry if I hit a nerve there. I meant to be using you as an example. Eight
Trigrams Boxer stated that he is 6'4", and that if he weighed 200 lbs., he would be too
big. I'm sure you realize that a 6'4" man is never going to look like a body builder at that
body wieght. I only used your name because you described yourself as a "hardcore body
builder" who wieghs 200 lbs. The reference to your height was merely an educated guess
based on the body builders who are active today, and was meant to illustrate the
absurdity of the of the idea that 200 lbs. of muscle is "too much" for a 6'4" man.

...and no, I'm not intimidated by your frame...
just jealous! Please accept my apology.

I accept your apology, hoping you will also accept my apology for being a complete @ss. I was irritated and it was late. When I read my reply again the next day, I thought, "what an @ss I am!". Anyway, I'll work on the late night attitude. Thanks!

[CD Lee]

Ok, I have several thoughts on this issue that bug me a little. They are just blatant common sense really so here goes:

1. The Chinese Masters, and practitioners of the internal arts did physical labor all day to earn a living lots of times. They were strong and had muscles for practical puposes. What did they do with thier muscular power when doing their arts? I think they relaxed them personally. What do you guys think? Did their muscles that were tense lifing a cart or pushing a plow, remain tense all the time, or duing their practice of internals?

2. You cannot move your skeleton without contracting muscles. It is impossible. Muscle is not bad. Unnecesary tension in the muscles is bad. There is always some tension neccessary for any movement even in the internals. Tension must be present however for any movements to work. That is a fact.

3. Whether weight lifting or doing labor, one must learn to vary the tension in thier muscles to perform internal arts or for other tasks.

4. Weights do not make you tight all the time. Just when you are actually lifting. The tightness in the muscles is blood immediately after doing the lifting.

5. The Problem is one of tension control. Being able to release/add tension into ones muscular system as needed. Performing forms using the same tension used to lift a very heavy object is ridiculous at best.

6. If I am two times stronger than another person doing the same exact internal move, both using relaxed muscles, and proper structure --- my move will be 'implicitly' stronger than his move.

I have worked arm bars with weak and strong, and believe me, it is easier even relaxed if your grip is nice and strong naturally.

[Zantesuken]

i think along the way the ideas of sung and blah blah were not translated correctly. in some of the chinese teachings of it there's one thing that translates into expand and contract. now that could go into many things like muscle expand ocntract, metaphorical blah blah.
instead of no muscles, no strength, very relaxed think of it this way.

push without pushing
use force without force

[bamboo_ leaf]

CD Lee,


I read your post, and like many people I feel because you have not felt it, it is very hard to except or understand. What Z, said is very correct but can’t help in the understanding of this process.

To move someone using nei-gung or intent is very, very hard. Only a few people that I have met can really do this. It’s different yes muscles are not used. Even Z’s idea of pushing with out pushing I would say is a little short. I would say there is no push only follow. Find the emptiness or lead them to emptiness and work with this. Really this is very different then pushing against the structure or blasting them out with fa-jing.

Also I would say it’s not a matter of wrong or right, that seems to be a very ridge approach to a living art. I would say it’s a matter of level and understanding.

Having practiced a long time is no grantee that you can get it or have it either. This is why it is very important to seek out others and see if what they say they can do is true, see if what you think you can or are doing is true.

this is what for me makes this art so very intersting

david

[circle_walker]

Not wanting to argue the aformentioned points, yoiu may be interested in some article that Capt. John Painter recently wrote for Inside Kung Fu Magazine. He covered plyometrics, and many weight oriented Bagua workouts. Also in a book titled "Emei Bagua Zhang" written by Yang Jwing Ming, Liang Shao Yu, and Wu Wen Ching; there were exercises shown where they used large bricks to compliment their training. I have never used any of these methods myself, in my internal training. However, I hope this information provides helpful to what you are looking for.

[CD Lee]

Bamboo_Leaf:

OK. I understand what you are trying to say I think. Let me make this observation. You absolutely cannot move your skeleton without using muscle contraction period. Period.

Unless...you are honestly using telekinetic mental force, which is akin to levitaion or moving objects with your mind alone. If one can do this, I do not see why it should be limited to the body.

I have an open mind seriously. In what other way can you move your skeletal structure than with muscle tension? You said intention alone? Think of what that actually means in kinnetic terms. It means the mind can lift and move with NO muscular support. Did you have any thoughts on my comments on muscular tension control versus muscle mass per se?

As far as Dr. Painter. I have felt his skills first hand. He gets a lot of crap on this forum from those who have not met him, but his methods are real, they work, and he personally, is very skilled. He has stated emphatically to his students many times, that although he is a very powerful man, and he is, that if a move requires more muscle than it takes to lift a 10 lb. weight, then it is perfomed incorrectly. Muscle has limitations, and rest assured, you can always find someone or some weapon/situation where your muscle will fail you.

I personally have felt the difference between muscular power and internal power. However, it simply takes a lot less muscle doing things internally than externally or hard from my experience. Now, I am new, and have not developed all the mental aspects obviously as you may have or others. But I have changed the way I have power. I am hooked enough to keep working hard.

Don't mean to be confrontational or aggressive on this issue. Really, what are you thoughts on my statements (other than I just have not felt it)?

[Leonidas]

I was told that 'sung' actually meant to move without conscious though and doesn't really mean to completely relax, which is impossible as you need atleast your legs tensed to stand up or you'd fall. once you internalize something in your mind its not that hard to move subconsciously. Thought is said to inhibit "chi" flow so i think it has less to do with muscle as it does with your mind. Look at the Chen Style or the Old Yang form, some of the moves are pretty athletic. Expand/Contract, probably means breathing

CD Lee said:
"6. If I am two times stronger than another person doing the same exact internal move, both using relaxed muscles, and proper structure --- my move will be 'implicitly' stronger than his move."

In reply to that, Internal Martials Arts have nothing to do with strength. The entire point of of Tai Chi for example is to use "4 ounces of force to deflect a thousand pounds" or something like that. I butchered the phrase and it is a bit of an exaggeration but thats the basic idea of all IMA styles. So if a situation like that somehow came up it be'd more of an issue of skill than strength. Who has a better understanding of their arts principles and more importantly who could could actually use them in a fight let alone a friendly sparring match. Oh yea, i didn't mean to attack your post CD just wanted to clear that up. Alot of people think that way.

[Zantesuken]

Expand contract from what i was told is in themovements. You push out and then sit back. Do the form and think about it. there's also a partial and impoartial movement. Positive/negative.

I'm not sure about the complete sung part but maybe at higher levels it's chi along the bones that provides power. It would also make sense that your muscles to contract (maybe not using strength) but a very very miniscule contraction that uses m inimal energy. if you were to simply not use your muscle then it would wither away.

When a lot of people look into this they get really bogged down. Remember Tai Chi was rooted from Taoism. Taosim is the way. It takes many things from nature and so does Tai Chi. I'm sure they took it into account that you don't just not use muscle. Muscle means using the muscle to move. not muscle to fight.

[Leonidas]

Sung is pretty complicated but i think there is more involved than just not using strength. 'Whole point of IMA is effortless fighting which takes alot more work than simply not tensing your muscles. More principles involved.

[CD Lee]

Leonidas said:

CD Lee said:
"6. If I am two times stronger than another person doing the same exact internal move, both using relaxed muscles, and proper structure --- my move will be 'implicitly' stronger than his move."

In reply to that, Internal Martials Arts have nothing to do with strength. The entire point of of Tai Chi for example is to use "4 ounces of force to deflect a thousand pounds" or something like that.

No offense taken BTW. I know you are not attacking my post.

I do not think you are correct however, when you say the intermal arts have nothing to do with strength. I think they have everything to do with it. The manner in which we express strength is the difference. Internals are more concerned with not using excessive muscular tension to fight with or move with.

That said, you still cannot move without using muscle fibers in a contracted state, unless you are using gravity at terminal velocity. Even a negative motion uses muscle. It is silly to say we do not use our muscles.

My point is this. If I have more muscular strength than you, and we are equal in internal skill, I can rely on muscular strength if I make a mistake, and you can to a lesser degree.

However, let me point out the obvious. Just because you have strong muscles, and do not rely on them to fight with, you still can use them to lift beds, to move furniture, to rescue people under debris, to lift kids, to pour cement in the back yard, and to look and feel great. Muscle is superior to lack of muscle. That does not mean you have to use your muscle inefficiently just because you have them.

Also, can you hold a horse stance with weak legs? Can you bamboo step effectively with weak legs? Can one do any kung fu to good effect with weak legs? I say no. Any other opinions?