Learning curve in Wing Chun

[straight blast]

I've been doing a lot of reading about Wing Chun (and no, I don't believe everything I read ), right from its roots to present day and there is one thing that is bothering me. And this is one thing that I have found almost across the board agreement on. As I understand it WC was invented as a simple, effective art designed to be learned in a maximum of about three years time - if one was to train full time.

Why then is it that my instructor who has trained full time for 12 years is not considered to have learned the whole system? Is it because of things that have been added over the years, or is it a lineage thing? I understand people who have not trained full time taking more years to learn it, but someone who has trained four times the original amount of time said should have learned the whole system. Is it a money thing?

Do your lineages take so much longer than the original idea? Wing Chun sells itself on the premise that it is so efficient and quick to learn, but is it really? Twelve years is not a quick system.

Someone please enlighten me and restore my faith in the system!!!

[rjlohan]

I would assume that the 3 years is representative of being able to use Wing Chun effectively in a combat situation, rather than being a complete professional. From what I've read here and there - even Grand Masters still train constantly, and never perfect everything...

[AdrianUK]

Hi

Finish the system in 3 years ? I have heard Master James Sinclair did it in just over 3 years but he may have been a natural, I would guess it depends on how good at each stage you have to be so it would be down to the teacher's willing to show and the students willing to perfect. This could be wildly off but it seems to take longer now, even full time, than it did way back. Maybe its down to what is full time now, 8 hours a day instruction or just practising alone 8 hours a day ? As for using the system for defence, well you don't need the whole thing for that against most people, so being able to defend yourself in 3 years is a definite !

Peace

[kungfu cowboy]

The enite system could be learned in three days, but it would probably take about three years to develop some real skill. There are a lot of factors involved in skillful internalization of a motor skill like wing chun such as inherent physiology, personal motivation, rate of neural connection, blah blah blah.

After geting past the initial unconventiality of the movements, the gains will be large as with any new skill, because there were zero before, followed by an increasingly gradual tapering. Eventually, skill will be lost due decomposition produced by old age, and stuff. Saying you can just keep getting better and better is generaly untrue. (A lot of the claims are never empirically tested)

I think the claim that it takes 10 ears before you can even get a glimpse of real skill is a bunch of hooey. The sklls you need to learn are not so super-incredibly difficult or foreign to the human body as to require that much time to internalize. Think of dancing, which is similar in some respects. But it sure is a good way to keep the income coming in!

[S.Teebas]

It depends on heaps of things. Like do you train EXACTLY the way these people (who said this?) train/trained. Somtimes schools these days incorporate different ways of training students..some have fitness programs incorporated. Some have added drills, some have added gradings, levels etc...
The way it is taught and the way it is learnt also effects how long it may take. Other factors that are possible are the WAY you train, how often...eg if you train every day its easier to advance, becasue WC skill is built on feeling, you need to build on that feeling...and not forget where youre at.
What percentage of the things you do would u say are identical to the way they trained in the old days?.... could be different again.

[red5angel]

I would have to agree with Kungfu Cowboy on this. You could learn the system in a really short time, a long weekend even. the problem is knowing the system an using it correctly.
I have come to understand that you should be able to learn and use the art effectively with 100 days of practice, but I assume that is 100 uninterrupted, 16 hour days of training, or something there abouts.
I thnk the trick is what level are you talking about, using it effectively against an untrained opponent, 100 hundred days of hard training seems reasonable.
Using it against a well trained opponent, I imagine 1 year of serious training and you would probably be able to hold your own.
3 years is probably an estimation for your average busy professional adult in our day and age. someone who may take an hour or two a day to train and goes to classes regularly.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that while one may learn the outward skills relatively quickly it is the application of the finer points which may take a lfetime. For example, one can learn to utilize the Taun Sau, Pak Sau and Gaun Sau with punching and stepping/shifting rather quickly. These basic techniques would serve you well in most encounters. No, they are not the answer to all situations but they should be sufficient for a good number of encounters and situations. However, the more deeply one explores the system the more variations one can discover as to how to apply these techniques. In addition the sensitivity and subtle skills of body structure will be refined over time as one gains a better understanding of the art.

Consider a carpenter for example. Compare a novice and an expert. If you look at them perform the same movement side by side you may notice very slight, subtle differences in technique. Sometimes this can be taught, other times it is the result of years of exploration of the same technique and the tailoring of that technique for that person. While both may be capable of building the same thing, the end product will be quite different in quality.

Wing Chun can be learned and used effectively, definetely within a years time. The refinement and further developement of these skills requires a lifetime. Things like sensitivity can not be imitated but must be developed over time by proper practice. You can use the art fairly quickly but to be an expert will require a greater investment of time and effort. It is a journey which never reaches its end. If you ever think you have arrived and mastered anything the chances are you got off the path somewhere.

Peace,

Dave

[anerlich]

Both my instructors told me that any good system of KF should give you a significant edge in defense within 18 months of consistent training.

As for "learning the system", most professions and trades expect you to spend 3-5 years at least in full-time training or study before you obtain a qualification to practice on your own. Professional sportspeople build careers over periods of years as well.

If you're only going to class a few times a week for an hour or two, then by those yardsticks it is going to take you a while.

My first instructor taught me all the ten forms up to instructor level and a good deal of other fairly advanced stuff from his system in less than 18 months, but he only did this because he knew I was leaving town, I was fortunate enough to be able to work with him one on one, and he saw in me a genuine strong interest and a natural aptitude for assimilating forms. Some of those forms were a lot longer and more complex than bil jee or chum kil (which is not to say they were *better*, just more complex). And of course, a facility with forms is not necessarily an indicator of combat ability or deep understanding of concepts and their application. I certainly didn't feel I had gone much beond a basic level of competence, nor did he grade me past low intermediate level in his system.

Some of Yip Man's most well-known and competent direct students did not spend more than three or four years training with him, though they seem to have inherited the goods all right. Of course they were a LOT more committed than the averaqe student you find today.

[straight blast]

Thanks people. Feels much better now.

[Zantesuken]

You can't directly call mastering a system mastering it. Wing Chun revolves around the basics and your ability to apply them. I've seen people who can step in well, and tan da well and when they do chi sao for the first time they do REALLY well.

Wing Chun has a different learning curve depending on everyone. Much like many MA. One thing is if you are overbuff (too muscular the big kind) no matter how hard you train you will never be able to get to a high level of skill. You will have strong everything but when it comes to sensitivity and ability to change is very low.

Wing Chun revolves arond being relaxed and trains your nervous system to "listen" to your opponent.

If your sifu says that training in an ma system should give you sufficient defensive ability within 18 months it's only a half truth. I know people who've trained more than 2 years and their chi sao is garbage.

Wing Chun isn't only a physical thing, it's also mental. So basically the smarter you are, the easier it is to understand concepts and the less steep your learning curve will be.

[Lightning Vortex Seiryu go]

If I where to train a pupil in the art of wing-chun for three years
I would do a back flip off a three story building if anyone on this planet could defeat him or her. The foundation of this art alone is
good enough to rank as a higher art than all the goverments military combat techniques in all the countrys in the world.

[rjlohan]

Geez mate - that's a big call...