Chinese MA + Western Sport Fencing

[chingei]

Originally posted by dre
Stone.

isn't that more of a wall?

[Xebsball]

Hey this is probably my 2nd most popular thread ever haha

-It would be also interesting if any of you guys happen to do a internal style tell me if doing such external could hold back my progress on internal.

-So Gene, are you what they call a "Mestre D'Armas"?

-There is no kendo in my area, and also im the kind of guy that doesnt like doing the kiai.

-Repulsive, my idea is that since ill only be able to train Xing Yi one time a week (i gotta travel 3 hours), it will really take a great deal of time until i can get to the weapons, plus the fact that the school is pointed towards empty hand fighting. So with the short time avalible i think it would be hard to be able to do all the drills/sparring of weapons since so much time is spent on empty hands.
Also i dont intend to start both right away, that wouldnt be wise. I want to learn the very basics of Xing Yi before getting to fence.

A interesting question:
-What about using the principles/forces of internal (assuming i learn them) in fencing?

[Tvebak]

I have been practising Xingyi for some years now and one of the senior students at the school used to be a fencer...he has a lot of good points about xingyi and other MA from his background i fencing.
I think its very different with people...what they see in their arts.

[Ky-Fi]

Well, I think it kind of depends on what kind of an approach to "internal principles" you're being taught. My Taiji teacher always explained them in a very logical, non-mystical way, and he always gave lots of non-taiji examples for everything. While there are some unique methods and principles in taiji, to a large extent I find the whole qigong thing to just be a different paradigm than the western model---it just uses a different framework to describe a lot of the same physical processes. I always use my analogy of a baseball pitcher doing something very similar to taiji---for his pitch, he relaxes his body, calms and focuses his mind, then he starts his windup, sinking in his chest to store his jing while reversing his breathing to draw in his dantien on the inhale, then he pushes off from his rooted foot and the energy goes through his waist and relaxed upper body in a whiplike pulse, while sharply exhaling and pushing out his dantien for the release of the ball---all very similar to "brush knee, step forward" in taiji.

I know there's some things in taiji (and taiji saber) like "peng", that doesn't really translate to fencing, but I find a good deal of the stuff applies. And, as has been mentioned, and from my limited experience, fencing relies VERY little on muscular strength-dominant techniques---so I don't think your're going to be doing tons of exercises that run counter to "internal" styles.

OK, I have a question for Gene:

As you seem to be into the historical roots of fencing, maybe you can understand where I'm coming from----I've been learning the foil with the French grip, and the traditional side of me want to remain with that grip permanently. However, I believe most competetive foil people eventually adopt the pistol grips. What's your take on that?

[Ky-Fi]

Actually I take that back about "peng" not applying----I was thinking of it in a more offensive manner with taiji saber, but I guess defensively peng could certainly apply---particularly when you're defending against an overhead strike to the head when you're fencing saber......hmmmm.......it's got me thinking........

[joedoe]

I have trained in CMA for 15 years, but started fencing at the start of this year. I love it! It is great fun.

However, if you are going to train both, you should make sure you make it clear to yourself that they are seperate things. Sure there is some crossover, but that is more in strategy than technique. Like they say, empty your cup first

I found in bouts, the hardest thing to get used to was not driving for power, but rather agility. I was so used to attacking with power that the first time I actually fenced (as opposed to drilling) I broke 2 foils - the master at arms was not happy .

Apart from that, I really enjoy fencing. I think it trains up different attributes to what my CMA does, and it does force you to think differently (mainly because in foil fencing you are restricted in several ways).

My advice though - make sure you are confortable in your Xing Yi before you take up fencing, otherwise you may end up confusing yourself .

[David Jamieson]

I have fenced all my life since I was nine and it never conflicted with martial arts practice at all and is truly a great passtime, passion and endeavour.

Gene, I didn't realize you fence. I knew you were big on swords but anyway...I digress.

One of the cool things I found after I had been doing Kung Fu for a while was an old fencing manual, or at least a part of it in another publication.
What it showed was attacks, defenses and techniques associated with epee, foil and sabre of the european traditions.

Mirrored against these prints were woodcuttings of japanese swordplay.

Wouldn't you know it, many techniques using like blades were very similar. Many of the footwork stances and patterns of attack were also similar.

Mathematical and scientific for sure, the human body works thus and with a sword in hand it does this.
I still have a pair of Paul Foils in good shape. Muchos fun.

peace

[Julien]

hmmmm... everyone that i have talked to before has hated fencing with epees. something about using a car antenna for a sword isn't as appealing as a nice, luxurious rapier.

i would suggest that if u do go into fencing, go into rapier fencing or sword-and-parrying-dagger fencing... most people like these alot, but some people question the effectiveness of the sword-and-parring-dagger style... (it is cool :P)

i believe if u can find an AEMMA school, they teach fencing... they teach everything in western combat :P

anywayz, just a heads up there
Julien

p.s. (ya, i don't like epees too... i find that fencing with epees isn't as much skill as chance... u watch the olympics and the duels only last about 1 second. just a bunch of poking and then a scream of frustration. gambling... i could be wrong but i see this as another reason people don't like epee fencing.)

[dre]

Xebsball:

-It would be also interesting if any of you guys happen to do a internal style tell me if doing such external could hold back my progress on internal.

Never done much internal stuff. You will develop explosive power with weapons in Fencing. Lunges and Fleche attacks have to be fast and furious to work.

-There is no kendo in my area, and also im the kind of guy that doesnt like doing the kiai.

Me nether. Yelling is not my thing. I take tow yell-less arts.

-my idea is that since ill only be able to train Xing Yi one time a week (i gotta travel 3 hours), it will really take a great deal of time until i can get to the weapons, plus the fact that the school is pointed towards empty hand fighting. So with the short time avalible i think it would be hard to be able to do all the drills/sparring of weapons since so much time is spent on empty hands.Also i dont intend to start both right away, that wouldnt be wise. I want to learn the very basics of Xing Yi before getting to fence.

Fencing is Superior! (ala Realek). lol , j/k.

A interesting question:
-What about using the principles/forces of internal (assuming i learn them) in fencing?

Jeez, I don't know about this, but I KNOW for a fact, that the longer you fence, the more you get a feel for the people you sparr. So you can easily pick out the holes in a person's defence with a look when you get pretty good. You can spot bad footwork , or holes in the gaurd , and from there you can lay your plans. . . . It's hard for me to really tell you , since I've been a fencer since 10 or 9. European weapons are home for me

Julien :
"hmmmm... everyone that i have talked to before has hated fencing with epees. something about using a car antenna for a sword isn't as appealing as a nice, luxurious rapier"

For some reason, everyone fixates on Foil , there are 3 big weapons! There is Foil, then Saber , then Epee! The Epee is actually much heavier than the other two, and you can get quite hurt if you don't know how to use it correctly! A few months ago we had someone with two broken ribs.

"p.s. (ya, i don't like epees too... i find that fencing with epees isn't as much skill as chance... u watch the olympics and the duels only last about 1 second. just a bunch of poking and then a scream of frustration. gambling... i could be wrong but i see this as another reason people don't like epee fencing.)"

Wow, you are very stupid. Epee is the highest level of Fencing, it is no longer a pracitce weapon at that point, one hit to any part of the body, and you're out.

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Julien]

i'm stupid because i don't like epees?

what u just said about it being 'one hit to any part of the body, and you're out' completely confirms the luck theory...

sure, if u hold the title as the best epee fighter in the world and u are constantly challenged, 1 lucky poke could change that because one poke and u're out....

if u go by scoring hits, it may be 8... that green swordsman will have to get in 8 lucky shots. (unless he hits in critical areas... i forget what school uses this system)

epees are alright, but rapiers just have that much more oomph.

if you're fighting someone with, say, hardened leather armor, u are most likely screwed unless u practice sharpening it everyday. (swords rarely stayed sharp... constant use caused they to dull and owners just didn't bother with the tedious exercise.)

epees are probably unparalelled (sp?) in unarmored combat but in armored combat, u need something with more weight behind it's blade (the blade doesn't have to be heavier, just balanced differently)

u can probably see what i am talking about.

oh, and we probably focus on rapiers more than epees because rapiers look cooler and have an actual blade... they don't just pick up radio waves hehe

no hard feelings
Julien.

[joedoe]

Ummmm, the epee is supposed to be a rapier but modified for competition fencing.

[Braden]

My favorite sword to fence with is the foil. Most people like it the least as it is generally taught first (and thus seen as inferior) and has the most restrictive rules. However, these same factors also make it the fastest and the most technical. No matter what sword you fence with, you won't be learning a self-defense sword art (and even if you were, the value of such a thing is obviously limited these days). The specialization in foil allows you to concentrate more on the attributes that can be built through fencing practice, which will benefit your other martial endeavors.

Xebs - Don't worry too much about the internal/external stuff. Mostly, in terms of the internals, you want to avoid training which promotes tension and/or resistance. This shouldn't be a problem with fencing. There will be a few bad habits you are at risk of picking up, but this will be true of any two arts.

[dre]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Julien
[B]
"what u just said about it being 'one hit to any part of the body, and you're out' completely confirms the luck theory..."

Well thats where the Martial Art part comes in, you must evade getting hit, yet hit yourself.

"sure, if u hold the title as the best epee fighter in the world and u are constantly challenged, 1 lucky poke could change that because one poke and u're out...."

Most epee Matches aren't 1 pointers, but it's often used as a tie-braker.

"if u go by scoring hits, it may be 8... that green swordsman will have to get in 8 lucky shots. (unless he hits in critical areas... i forget what school uses this system)"

It's actually 15. And FYI , green swordsman really suck. All they can do is swing, they have no defence, no movement, they are just targets.

"epees are alright, but rapiers just have that much more oomph."

An epee is a sport Rapier.

"if you're fighting someone with, say, hardened leather armor, u are most likely screwed unless u practice sharpening it everyday. (swords rarely stayed sharp... constant use caused they to dull and owners just didn't bother with the tedious exercise.)"

Umm, actually no, the reason western systems concentrate on stabbing is becuase it conentrates power in the tip , power that can go though light armour. Stabbing is also much more deadly than slashing.

"epees are probably unparalelled (sp?) in unarmored combat but in armored combat, u need something with more weight behind it's blade (the blade doesn't have to be heavier, just balanced differently)"

Maybe , but in the West, westill favor stabs over slashes.

"oh, and we probably focus on rapiers more than epees because rapiers look cooler and have an actual blade... they don't just pick up radio waves hehe"

UGh. Epees are sport rapiers.

[dre]

Of couse it's a self-defence sword art. What other purpose was it invented for? Thats why you advance in fencing to swords with less rules and restrictions.

[Braden]

I don't think the fencing we do today is quite like the fencing that was done for people training to defend their lives with their swords. Even with epee, the restrictions on your movement and "secondary" techniques are so strict that it could not even be an rough approximation of a self-defense encounter with swords. Which is not to say that it won't build great attributes for such a situation, but I allready said that.