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Thread: mantis vs BJJ

  1. #1
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    Question mantis vs BJJ

    Well, not just BJJ, any grabling, like Judo, etc. I am thinking of Maintis way against movements to such. The first I come up with is the mantis claw, it can be used to resist many submmision holds, such like an arm bar. I don't know if any one else has any thing on this aspect.

  2. #2

    Question Not sure what you're going for...

    Not sure what you're going for with this thread.

    Most submission holds are on the ground. The submission fighters don't do standing arm bars and such. The only standing submission hold that I can think of is the guillotine and a mantis player wouldn't place himself into a position to let a submission fighter do that hold since it requires the aggressor to shoot too high with their head down, and I don't know of any mantis shooting techniques.

    Mantis hooks and any standard standing chin na would be pretty ineffective against a sidemount armbar, toe hook, figure four leg lock, knee bar, rear mount choke, triangle choke, ankle lock, nose grinder, hip crank, etc. Those are all in the submission fighters bag of tricks.

    All I can say is to use mantis effectively in the standing position and don't get taken to the ground. Other than that, learn to submission wrestle Pancrase style. BJJ, Sambo, Judo etc. aren't quite as effective as Pancrase style submission wrestling which is based on western freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling. They are too formal and rigid where Pancrase is more free flowing and inclusive of effective techniques. Read Ken Shamrock's "Inside the Lions Den" as a primer in Pancrase methodology.

    Don't get me wrong, I love 7* Mantis, but I'm also a realist. And, being a realist, I don't underestimate the value of learning ground fighting.

  3. #3
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    MightyB

    Good advice on extra learning stuff.

    When I went to visit Mantis108 in Canada he showed me the Taiji PM 8 Elbows form. It has a unique way of applying the guillotine.

    He said," Now here is a cool move."
    He forearmed me in the head then jumped up like a monkey and BAM! Pulled me into the hold. I didn't shoot in for anything, he did it while I was standing.
    This was impressive since I outweigh him by a substantial amount.

  4. #4

    Ouch...

    Tainan,

    That couldn't have been too fun for you, but that would be an awesome move for you to put in your arsenal. Mantis 108 and you always have really good stuff to share.

    --------

    I don't want to get on this over glorifying of ground fighting though. I like kung fu, but there are instances when Kung Fu is a little too dangerous to use and submission holds are better. For instance, a lot of guys on this forum are young and they probably are getting ready to go to college. Well, you just can't go around poking people in the eyes, crushing their throats, and busting their limbs when you're in school.

    I'll give you a couple of examples from my college days. I have a friend who was a power lifter and a bouncer. He also knew just enough Judo to be dangerous. One day, he grabbed my wrist and asked me what I'd do. I went for the standard chin na counter and I couldn't apply it because he was too strong. He's about 6 foot 230 pounds, I'm 5'8" and weigh about 142 pounds. I know that in that situation you're supposed to soften the guy up before the chin na, but I couldn't just kick and hit my friend. Needless to say, he picked me up and slammed me on the floor. Luckily, I'm a better wrestler than he is and I got up before he could do the mount. The hold was broken, so technically I countered successfully.

    Another instance was similar but with my brother. He's also bigger than me. We were play fighting and he got me to the ground. (You can't just kill your brother so that eliminates about 2 thirds of Kung Fu technique). I put him into what's known as a key-hole-lock and forced him to submit on the ground.

    That's really the value of learning that stuff. Besides, it's kind've fun to try something different once in a while.

    Talk to you later.

  5. #5
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    Mantis grappling methodology

    Nope, I'm not joking. Cross-training with grapplers, and as a free style wrestler in my school days, I've notice that our 12 character principles translate well to the ground. So, here's my theory:

    Being a principle based style coupled with PM's history of absorbing other styles forms and techniques, PM is a great grappling system. Of course, development in that direction has been slight. The ground fighting PM form, which I seen, does put more enphasis on striking while hugging to the floor, but could be translated more closely to more grappling focus.

    Anyway, more later.

  6. #6
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    Talking Great topic!

    Hi Guys,

    This is one of the most interesting topic since I am sure quite a few of us have a solid background in Mantis applications. Although different branches of Mantis often approach combat differently, but we all adhere to similar concepts and philosophies. So we can explore this base on a solid Mantis perspective. Please remember that this has to be clearly bore in mind, otherwise we are no longer approaching the question like traditional Kung Fu stylists, who we are, but MMA stylists, who we are not.

    I am sure that we have all heard about the Dei Tang Lang (Ground Mantis form). Having said that I will also have to point out the TJPM or Meihwa's 7th section of Dzai Yao is also a ground fighting form, which Sifu Ilya Profatilov seems to have this one. Anyway, my point is that our pass Mantis masters have already been working in this area. So there should not been any doubt that we shall develop ground fighting skill.

    As for Mantis and BJJ, I have some interesting thoughts. BJJ has its root in Jit Jutsu which is pretty much a Japanese MA. I found it very interesting that those Chinese coastal provinces (i.e. Fujian and Shandong) which were under Japanese pirates invasions all have ground fighting in mind while those inland areas seem less developed in this aspect of fighting. Could it be the numerous conflicts of them brought the needs? Anyway, ground fighting is no stranger to Mantis.

    In investigateing BJJ, we found that BJJ is a style of ground fighting but it is not the other way around. This mean that there are many approaches to ground fighting other than BJJ's. The main feature of BJJ is the highly developed guard positions which is fighting laying on the ground. The other 2 positions are side control and mount. The guard, the side control and mount made up the bulk part of ground fighting and BJJ is exceptionally good in the guard position where it can launch attacks such as the straight arm bar, etc... As we can see the guard is may be a thrid of the entire ground curriculum. Personally for Mantis, we can make use of side control/mount position. This way we can keep the mobility and most of the mantis techs in tact.

    I am having a student from the Edmonton club visiting me now and we need to work out a bit now. So I will have to cut short on this one right now. Will be back for more.

    Paul,

    Thanks for the great thread. I don't think I can stop talking about it.

    Mighty B,

    Great points and thank you for the kind words. I hope I could do more for the community.

    Tainan,

    Thank you, my friend, you give me too much credit. The move that I showed you would be even more powerful in your hands. I am glad you like it.

    Mantis 9,

    Love to hear more about your opinion. Thanks for sharing.

    Regards

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

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  7. #7
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    (You can't just kill your brother so that eliminates about 2 thirds of Kung Fu technique).
    lol
    killer kung fu commando streetfighter who has used his devastating fighting system to defeat hordes of attackers in countless combat situations

  8. #8
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    Okay...

    Mantis108 has a great point: past masters were not sheltered from wrestling focused opponents. (If I'm paraphase correctly.)

    MightyB has a great point: eye gouging or destroying limbs are not always appropriate (thank goodness!!)

    My perspective has changed after reading your two posts. First, I believe that the fundamental tools are there in PM, whatever branch or lineage you may adhere. Now, whether you decide to approach the grappling opponent by avoiding his/her area of expertise or fight on the ground, I am sure that PM will not fail you. You simply have to explore that aspect of the game. And second, practicing non-damaging chin na and controling techniques in free flowing should be a decent part of are workouts. Recently, my sigung has been on a chin na kick, which has really opened my eyes to how PM naturally lends itself to opening the opponent to the possibility of chin na without destroy your opponents ability to carry on a normal life afterward.

    Anyway, more later.

  9. #9
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    Smile Ground game...

    To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

    1) Break fall

    This is most basic skill in learning takedown. Tainan Mantis showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills which are to deal with the three ground position.

    Guard position - Leg raise
    Side control - shrimping
    mount - bridging

    All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

    2) Throws and takedown

    Quan (fighting form) such as the Dei Tanglang has planty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Lohan Gung can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspect of fighting.

    We should also learn takedown from the three ground position as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

    3) Grappling Techniques

    Mantis has planty of this offered as stand up grappling. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of the, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

    4) Escape

    This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one. If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can.

    5) Finishing moves

    This was brought up from the above posts. We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis. Hope I make sense here.

    I could provide a drill if anyone is interested

    6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

    Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allowed you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear.

    7) Climate training

    Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That's will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.

    The above is a brief overview of ground game which I approach from a Mantis perspective. Hope it helps

    Mantis108

    PS. Thanks Mantis 9. You got my point.
    Last edited by mantis108; 05-11-2002 at 12:58 PM.
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  10. #10
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    sharing drills

    What is the drill?
    Can you post an mpeg?
    I think you everything you need need to get one up.

  11. #11
    Stacey Guest
    great thread mantis 108.


    Heres a drill.


    in 8 step we have at least 4 shooting techniques that I know of within our 40 throws. Them we have the throwing parts so we can invent our own throws spontaneously.

    anyways.... do modified sparring. one guy can only strike and keep the other guy away. The other guy can only stick, throw, takedown and wrestle.


    Heres another...start by grabbing your partners leg...he has to stop from being throws, you only have to throw him.....have fun, work on counters.



    2. many chin na simply lower a person, take them to the point of screaming immobility.


    heres another.......start player a in the mount on player b. Do your mantis grabbing and blocking drills and body controls from there. Have them bridge and roll each other after the grab....learn to use strikes to pass the guard...basic ground positioning.

  12. #12
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    Weight distribution

    This is one key element of ground fighting that would be of paramount importance when either attempting to avoid or engage the situation. Mantis108 mention this facet by his statement "Good balance, mobility and breathing should allowed you to survive standing up or on the ground." I believe weight distribution falls within this catagory and is one of the key factors that ends up putting most fighters who are more comfortable standing in trouble.

    This is also why ground positions like the guard, mount, etc. are not only possible, but even preferable positions. I see this as a universal rule to all fighting arts as well as grappling focused arts.

    Its the underpinning principle on the ground that allows mobility, awareness and sensitivity to your opponent, and relaxation. Mantis skills, techniques, and concepts work when when good weight distribution is accomplished standing or on the ground. This translates into good balance.

    That's my theory. Anything else you guys could add or subtract.

    Great thread.

  13. #13
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    Smile Indeed, great thread!

    Hi Guys,

    This thread does turn out to be one of the great discussions on the Mantis forum. I am glad that we all have something to share.

    Tainan,

    Here's the drill:

    First and foremost, there are 2 ways to start the drill:

    1) Do a takedown move. It could be any one from the Mantis arsenal. For simplification, we pick the Deng Ta here.

    2) Start from ground position. This is the immediate position after the takedown.

    Let's start with #1

    B: Right straight pun (as in a jab)

    A: Performs a Deng Ta takedown

    B: Landed on the ground with the left side on the floor/mat

    A: sticking to B and keeping B's right upper limb all the while. A should assume kneeling stance/Yu Huan Bu and stay next to B. This is the starting position for ground control.

    things to bear in mind: A should make sure B landed on the left side and B's back is exposed towards A. This give a superior position for A to gain said control. The Yu Huan Bu is excellent in pinning B on the ground. All A has to do is to make sure the rare knee is pinning B around the floating rib. This helps to restrict B's breathing and wears him down. B's right wrist is under control by A's left hand and B's right elbow is straighten and locked (kind of an armbar) by the front thigh of A's Yu Huan Bu. A's left leg (front leg) is placed close to B's neck and shoulder.

    Drill 1 - stage one:

    from the start position, A uses thumb on pressure point which I showed you before. B response by tap out if the pressure point is pressed correctly by A. What we look for here is speed and accuracy of A's action.

    Drill 1 - stage two:

    from the start position, A do the same thing. B however will try to roll the whole body over and towards A (parry A's attack with the left hand). If B is successful in getting out of the Yu Huan Bu side control, he should progress immediately to put A into his closed guard. The drill will be ended if A can't not maintain or re-pin B under the Yu Huan Bu side control position. If B is sucessful in putting A in the closed guard, then A will be the one to be taken down and B gets to do the pinning. A gets a second chance if B fails to put him in the closed guard.

    There is a 30 seconds time limit.

    Drill 2 is similar to Drill 1 except this time is (front) knee to the jaw as control instead of the thumb to pressure point.

    Things to pay attention to is the limb control and the rare knee (the pinning knee) have to maintain good control at all times. observing the sticking, paste, etc...(you know the 4 of the 12 characters pinciples.) make sure to leave no space between you and your opponent.

    from Drill 2 you can proceed to do other finishing moves like the straight arm bar which I think we have done that before.

    Stacey,

    Nice post. Thanks for sharing.

    Mantis 9,

    Very good points, I agreed. Thanks.

    Regards

    Mantis108

    PS. forgot to mention knees are one of the 8 shorts of Mantis which as seen in the above drills can be used in those manners. Doing monkey walks can also help to develop the "knee punch"
    Last edited by mantis108; 05-13-2002 at 04:19 PM.
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


    CCK TCPM in Yellowknife

    TJPM Forum

  14. #14
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    Question DengTa

    Mantis 108,

    The Deng Ta you are talking about will have your opponent fall face down or face up? The follow up moves are different from each case. The one you have said sond like a face down situation since the RuHuanBu you are using after that.

    Ba Wang Quain Chu, Pou Boun Xe, Nia Di She, Weai Di She, Chi Ma Die Jou, Weai Liang, Guan Men Be Hu, and Lao Han Ke Gu can also be drilled.

    We usually stand on feet rather go down the ground with opponent. When off feet on ground, usually finish fast, within 3 moves, and not really doing any Judo/BJJ stuffs.

    Usually on the fall form throwing, you have your knee and/elbow at the positionn to strike the spine. For na, a Huang Yin Bei Che usually availible at the postion(in which rather than keep the arm straight and pressure on elbow, you bend it in the back and pressued both elbow and shoulder, pinned on spine with knee or elbow. You can later stood on feet, use one foot control and free the hands after that).

    That is what we do in 8 step form the ground aspects.

    There are many other things we do, but they are not in 8 step discipline.

    Staycy,

    Better not grab the legs of a practioner who has advanced foundation(I don't see many people like that any ways, alot of people don't even know how to stand properly), you can get killed. Not even ShuaiChiao would just go grab the legs without proper setups, not like Western nor BJJ.

    Chin Na should do more than just lowering some one. You can chose to break the body part before fall, or pin on the ground with pain.

  15. #15
    Stacey Guest
    Pau Lin

    It is my experience that most all of 8 steps blocks for kicking result in a kick catch that yeilds a throw or broken leg.

    What do you do when they have your leg? Well, Guin Twei Kan for starters.


    This is a way of developing that root and developing countering skills in an increasingly "live" drill.


    WIth chin na I was talking about submission fighting chin na. In a sporting environment, its not nice to simply break someone. Many people practice for pain and not neccisarilly immobilization.

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