mantis vs BJJ

[mantis108]

Hi Paul,

"The Deng Ta you are talking about will have your opponent fall face down or face up? The follow up moves are different from each case. The one you have said sond like a face down situation since the RuHuanBu you are using after that. "

Deng Ta would be taking him face up throw from his back side
Deng Pu would be taking him face down throw from his front side.
I sometime call Deng Pu as Deng Ta as well since the motion is similar just the taking the front side or the back side of the of opponent makes different.

Yu Huan Bu (kneeling stance) could be used in both situation as a follow up. I know that different PM has different requirement for the stance. So we will need to adjust slightly while using the stance. But I stress that in essence your stance retain it function as it's originally designed.

"Ba Wang Quain Chu, Pou Boun Xe, Nia Di She, Weai Di She, Chi Ma Die Jou, Weai Liang, Guan Men Be Hu, and Lao Han Ke Gu can also be drilled."

Would you mind sharing them with us?

"We usually stand on feet rather go down the ground with opponent. When off feet on ground, usually finish fast, within 3 moves, and not really doing any Judo/BJJ stuffs. "

I believe that BJJ stuff was meant to be swift ( I could be wrong). Not the showy sport version that we see in the UFC/NHB events. To be fair, we see some of that flashiness in Lei Tai tournaments that we used to have in the pass. For some bizzare reason people behave differently if there is a large audience.

"Usually on the fall form throwing, you have your knee and/elbow at the positionn to strike the spine. For na, a Huang Yin Bei Che usually availible at the postion(in which rather than keep the arm straight and pressure on elbow, you bend it in the back and pressued both elbow and shoulder, pinned on spine with knee or elbow. You can later stood on feet, use one foot control and free the hands after that).

That is what we do in 8 step form the ground aspects."

Thanks great info. really appreciate that.

"There are many other things we do, but they are not in 8 step discipline. "

I hear you. Thanks for pointing that out and for the great thread.

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Deng Pu would have the face down falling meaning in the Pu word, I haven't thought about that. We didn't really disdinquished the Deng Pu and Deng Ta like this. It is nice to know

Those moves that you can drill on thowing in 8 step mantis, I will try to get them all when I have the time. I will put them in the order of foundation stance that it related to.

1. ChiMaDeiJou--Ride horse with folded elbow. It enters just like DengTa, but finish with elbow strike and low horse posture. It must be done a little bit closer to opponent than DengTa.

2. NiaDiShe--Inside posture. based on the bow stance. When opponent puched or reach out hand, you used swining up and push forward arm deflect like you would do in HaiDiLaoYuea. That will make your opponenet lift up the front leg. if you pick leg up from out side the elbow, it will be called WeaiDiShe--Outside posture. Sweep the remianing leg and pull the upper hand grab after the deflect opposit to the sweeping direction.

3.PouBounXe--breaking the wings. Based on the sitting tiger stance. You use filing punch to intercept your opponent's arm, filing punch will first lift, and then drop the attack arm, grab the arm on the way down and keep it on the side of hip. At the same time. sent the 2nd filing punch toward either the eyes, throat, or right under the nose. If opponenet didn't block, it will hit rather than throw. If opponenet block the 2nd puch, he will have to cross the arms to block it. By the same way, the 2nd filing puch will lift and grab down the block, at the same time, switch the other grab to press on the elbow of the blocking arm, add the sweep on the 2nd side of punch. You opponent will fall with elbow still in your na position.

write more later.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Stacey
Heres another...start by grabbing your partners leg...he has to stop from being throws, you only have to throw him.....have fun, work on counters.

Here, I don't see your opponent kicked, but I see you start by grabbing your partners leg.

heres another.......start player a in the mount on player b. Do your mantis grabbing and blocking drills and body controls from there. Have them bridge and roll each other after the grab....learn to use strikes to pass the guard...basic ground positioning.

Now that is Western Wrestling, not 8 step at all. You can count that into Shyun style kung fu though, Western Wrestling people will not mind about you taken their skills.

[NPMantis]

Blatantly mantis is the man, there are a large range of anti-grappling techniques and obviously any good mantis school will use their Chin Na with regards to ground work applications also, I would say it is very much down to individual vs individual. My sifu sparred with a JJ guy once and beat him with no problems, I think it rests on how good the indiviaul is at their respective arts.

[yu shan]

Ditto PL and NPM!

[KnightSabre]

NP Mantis,

there is a big difference between JJ and BJJ,
I'm a blue belt in BJJ and I beat a black belt in JJ.

I'm taking anything away from your Sifu though,

I like what someone had to say about Ken Shamrock's words on Pancration being the best,Ken sure did convince Royce Gracie.

[PaulLin]

CMA like 8 step mantis, taichi, bagua, xing-yi, etc. It can be grow futher by themselves without borrowing other style's, it is because they has deep root and philosophy that support the further growth and it is roofless. For examples, the 5 hands in 8 steps involves into 125 combos and each has different relationship with one another, the 8 hard and 12 soft technechs also has the same relation.

I don't know BJJ has any root or deep philosophy that support the growth. In fact, form what I have seen, it doesn't looks good for health.

The first approach I will take for 8 step vs. BJJ is to stay on feet.

The 6th stance in 8 step will buy you enough time to finish off the opponent before the BJJ take down can work.

The 4th stance can be used to off set the take down as press down on one side and pull on the other, so there will be no even grab availible for both arms, therefor, cannot bring the person off feet.

The correct hip position is very important in this aspect, you can't have your hip loose and legs not in proper control.

[Tainan Mantis]

I always wondered what would happen against a bjj man.
A lot of MArtists poo poo that style, but I don't think that is fair.
So I went against a young Gracie named Rolls. His dad of the same name was very famous until he died in a plane crash (I think).

We went for 3 submissions. Two that he did we practice in our PM school. The third we don't since it was a gi choke and we usually wear t-shirts.

He himself was about the most humble man I ever met, but his student, a karate teacher, thought bjj was the only MA worth learning.

So I asked Rolls about his training.
He grew up in his dad's school of 300 students. His earliest childhood memories are on the mat. I suppose if I had been doing PM since I was 3 fighting different people everyday with hundreds to choose from I'd be much better than I am today.

Maybe if I could spar with him all the time I could have a better grasp on how to nullify his clever takedowns so...

Later I worked out in a jj school hoping to get a better idea of the takedown situation. Strangely, sparring with them was a totally different outcome....

[PaulLin]

Difficult to find a good BJJ around. Do you know any? Around here OrangCounty California? I should go check them out.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre


there is a big difference between JJ and BJJ,
I'm a blue belt in BJJ and I beat a black belt in JJ.

Yes the only difference between bjj and jj is that one is better than the other. Its also very fair to sum up an entire style based on one practicioner from one style.

[PaulLin]

I don't think of disrespect to where the style/art came form and proud about it is any good idea. If a later style is not better than the previous one in some way that fits the current time needs, it wouldn't be created any way.

It is like you don't go back and look at your grand fathers and anccestors and think that you have better computer knowledge than they are and feel proud about that.

[KnightSabre]

It's not just from one example.

Take the fight between Royce Gracie 6'1 180 and Remco Pardoel 6'4 260.
Royce Gracie allthough a BJJ blackbelt was never the best in the world at his weight,infact he has never really won any major BJJ tournaments.Remco on the other hand at the time was the open Dutch,open German,open Holland and European JJ champ for consecutive years.

The outcome?
Even outweighed by 80 pounds and with less titles, Royce easily defeatd Remco.
It is also interesting to note that Royce didn't strike Remco once in the match but beat him with pure BJJ.

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin--Orange County is near LA, right? If so, then you are in the US MECCA of BJJ. It's very easy to find good BJJ. I'd avoid the Torrance Gracie academy because of the prices. Plus, I've heard Rorian's business practices are somewhat suspect. This is what I have heard mind you--I'm not speaking from experience.

Do not get hung up on learning from a Black Belt, although in your area, that shouldn't be an issue. The basics are the basics and can be learned from a decent blue belt. Purple belt instructors with their own school are not uncommon.

Next Generation Fight Academy teaches a good deal of No-gi submission grappling, heavily fight oriented, vice sport BJJ. It's run by Chris Brennan, well respected in the fight game, and he is in Irvine California.

Combative Fighting Systems has Ken Gabrielson as their instructor. He is a black belt under Reylson Gracie. They are in Westminster.

Torrance has a Caique school somewhere, I think, and also has Torrance Gracie and Torrance Machado I think.

John De La O teaches in Huntington Beach, I think.

Anyway--you have a TON of options out that way...

Side note: Wrestlers and BJJers don't attack the legs without setting it up...not the good ones anyway

[9dragonshijin]

We all know that bjj beats every style hands down. It does not matter whether the practitioner is 25 lbs overweight, is scared of his own shadow, and smokes a pack a day Camel unfiltered...the style is THAT good.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
It's not just from one example.

Take the fight between Royce Gracie 6'1 180 and Remco Pardoel 6'4 260.
Royce Gracie allthough a BJJ blackbelt was never the best in the world at his weight,infact he has never really won any major BJJ tournaments.Remco on the other hand at the time was the open Dutch,open German,open Holland and European JJ champ for consecutive years.

The outcome?
Even outweighed by 80 pounds and with less titles, Royce easily defeatd Remco.
It is also interesting to note that Royce didn't strike Remco once in the match but beat him with pure BJJ.

Okay thats amazing. I could wander through parks all across the country beating up elderly people practicing tai chi and it wouldnt prove tai chi to be an ineffective and inferior martial art.

There is unlimited variation in the skill level of a practicioner of any martial art.If your going to call an art inferior you cant do it based on the fact that its stylists suck or even that its teachers suck!