mantis vs BJJ

[KnightSabre]

I hate getting into this style versus style debate, but here goes.

Are you saying that if one style predominantly beats another style ity's not the style but the practitioners?
Is it a fluke then that the one style has all the gifted athletes joining it's ranks while the average athletes take up the other?

Whats harder to believe ,that one style is more effective than another or that one style has all the good fighters flocking to learn it and the other style has poor fighters joining?

The school where I train at Street Tough Gym South Africa Http://www.icon.co.za/~jkdrsa has taken part in quite a few NHB tournaments, the schools record is something like 30 wins 5 losses.Our losses come from another BJJ school and we've beaten them 4 or 5 times too.
We've never lost to any traditional school.
Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?
I find that hard too believe.

[MightyB]

quote from KnightSabre: "Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?"

That happens a lot in other sports, so why not MA? When I was in High School, this went on in the Fall between baseball and track and field. If the Track team was doing good, the majority of talented athletes joined the track team. If the baseball team was doing good, then the talented athletes would go to the baseball team.

Also... 1950's = Judo, 1960's = Karate, 1970's = Kung Fu, 1980's = Ninjitsu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Filipino styles, 1990's = Kickboxing and BJJ, 2000's = NHB.

BJJ and NHB athletes are just following the herd.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by KnightSabre
I hate getting into this style versus style debate, but here goes.

Then you probably shouldnt have stated the difference between jj and bjj is one can beat up the other.

Originally posted by KnightSabre

Are you saying that if one style predominantly beats another style ity's not the style but the practitioners?
Is it a fluke then that the one style has all the gifted athletes joining it's ranks while the average athletes take up the other?

Whats harder to believe ,that one style is more effective than another or that one style has all the good fighters flocking to learn it and the other style has poor fighters joining?

The school where I train at Street Tough Gym South Africa Http://www.icon.co.za/~jkdrsa has taken part in quite a few NHB tournaments, the schools record is something like 30 wins 5 losses.Our losses come from another BJJ school and we've beaten them 4 or 5 times too.
We've never lost to any traditional school.
Is it because of the styles or is it cause all the gifted athletes have joined our and the other BJJ school and the weaker athletes joined the traditional schools?
I find that hard too believe.

First of all JJ is a traditional martial art just like tai chi or karate. Often people from traditional martial arts dont train quite as realistically as say BJJ people. Therefore more often than not they will be less prepared then BJJ people. This has nothing to do with the art and everything to do with bad instruction.

Second of all did you join a BJJ place because you looked at the techniques of various styles and thought to yourself boy that BJJ technique is the only one that could be used effectively in a fight or did you see other people using BJJ techniques effectively? Many people are attracted to BJJ because BJJ has had many great fighters!

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--Orange County is near LA, right? If so, then you are in the US MECCA of BJJ. It's very easy to find good BJJ. I'd avoid the Torrance Gracie academy because of the prices. Plus, I've heard Rorian's business practices are somewhat suspect. This is what I have heard mind you--I'm not speaking from experience.

Do not get hung up on learning from a Black Belt, although in your area, that shouldn't be an issue. The basics are the basics and can be learned from a decent blue belt. Purple belt instructors with their own school are not uncommon.

................

Side note: Wrestlers and BJJers don't attack the legs without setting it up...not the good ones anyway

Thanks, Merryprankster. Don't worrie about the price, I am not going to take a BJJ class, just to see if I can find some really good BJJ and maybe had a chance to spar some. Just like you have said, I have not yet seen a good set up, most of them just take chances, either seeing a swing or lift of leg will signal them to leap forward and take down. I would considered that as a poor take down set up against the one who has root-less and tense style of fighting. It sound to me that I should find some one in BJJ who as good as you said, then I will be happy.

[Merryprankster]

Another side note---many BJJer's have lousy takedown skills, but the higher level ones have typically studied that a little bit more.

Your better takedown guys in BJJ typically have had some wrestling experience.

[yu shan]

I wrestled in camps as a young person, then high school, on to College. As a seasoned adult in CMA, I wonder how I would fare against BJJ.

[Merryprankster]

yu shan--

my experience--there are certain things you would do very well, and there would be certain positions in which you would not feel as though you were in danger, but it turns out you are.

I wrestled before I did BJJ, so I'm pretty aware of common "wrestler's mistakes."

[wiz cool c]

I think all mantis artist should learn the basic positions like gaurd and mount and learn to applie there mantis from these positions. also learn to defend against arm locks and chokes.with that your kung fu will be complete.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
I think all mantis artist should learn the basic positions like gaurd and mount and learn to applie there mantis from these positions. also learn to defend against arm locks and chokes.with that your kung fu will be complete.

One question for you. Chinese Martial Arts has been about 5000 years but never took the long ground fight like tangle up on the ground for serious. The tangle up situation is trained to be aviod. Is all 5000 years of Chinese MA all wrong? Or is there a deeper side that must be trained for decades to see?

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin;

It is a different philosophy, and as such, it is kind of "new."

The Chinese arts may not have gone to the ground, but there was a school of Japanese Jujutsu that did. And many of these groundfighting techniques were incorporated into Judo. A judo teacher and fighter went to Brazil and taught what he knew. But, instead of Judo, he called what he taught Jiujitsu. It was practiced there for many decades and then when it came to the US, and other countries people called it Brazilian Jiujitsu to distinguish it from Japanese Jujutsu.

Groundfighting is very different from standing fighting. I mean that it is different in how you move. Many things that you would think are "right" on the ground are not right at all. It seems right, but then you find out you are in trouble fast.

It is like knowing to fight standing while your opponent does not. You should beat him. If you know how to fight on the ground, and your opponent does not, you should beat him. However, knowing how to fight standing up does NOT mean you know how to fight on the ground because they are not the same. The different way of moving means you must practice moving on the ground. Brazilian jiujitsu is a system for moving and fighting on the ground.

The ground is not always the best place to be, but it is not always the wrong place to be, and even though people try not to be on the ground, sometimes, it happens. Brazilian Jiujitsu teaches you how to win on the ground, and also how to change positions right so you can get up safely.

I would not call 5000 years of Chinese arts wrong. I would call it different. But even though BJJ is not old, that does not mean that it doesn't have an impact. The development of the gun was something new that changed combat forever.

I think the best way for you to understand is to go to a school and take an introductory class or watch some classes to find out. It is like me and Tai Chi: I do not pretend to understand it because I have not experienced it.

I would say to try and arrange some sparring matches, but I do not know anybody out there to help with that, and some teachers might not like it if you came to their school and wanted to punch and kick and throw. They might get upset. But again, I do not know.

Next Generation has people that do many fight competitions and if you wanted to have a harder contact sparring session with people who also know how to groundfight, I would try there. I would also specifically ask to spar somebody who is good on the ground. You might have to wear "fight gloves," but you can use your hands to grab in them, and you can use open hand, tiger claw, etc, just fine in them, as well as punch. I think they are very good.

I hope this helps. If I were out there, I would spar with you.

[mantis108]

First off, I would like to thank Paul for the info on his techniques. Very interesting, I would love to see them performed some day.

MP has a point. Actually some very good ponits on the moving and fighting on the ground. Arts do change over time because we perceive things differently all the time; However, I couldn't help but agree with Paul that Mantis as a system of fighting is quite complete as it was. Yet IMHO there are always room for improvement. It is not prudent to discard Mantis as non effective when it come to ground fighting just because it hasn't been showcased as such. Likewise it is not prudent to discard BJJ.

I believe being loyal to your main art is great and an important virtue as a martial artist. At the same time being open minded and explore the strength and weaknesses of other arts and learn from that experience, which in turns strengthen your belief in your main art, is a prudent measure. There are always room for "secret techniques". lol... BTW in case you guys haven't notice, Mantis (the insect) fights horizontally.

Mantis108

PS the question shouldn't be which art complete which art. That's just a matter of preception. It should rather be how one art's principles and concepts compliment the other art's principles and concepts. That way you can have workable grounds.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin

One question for you. Chinese Martial Arts has been about 5000 years but never took the long ground fight like tangle up on the ground for serious. The tangle up situation is trained to be aviod. Is all 5000 years of Chinese MA all wrong? Or is there a deeper side that must be trained for decades to see?

I dont think this post is really in the spirit of praying mantis. As im sure everyone knows praying mantis style is made up of the best techniques from several martial arts and some stuff that was new. I dont think "going to the ground" would be practical on the battlefield on in a gang fight but on the other hand it obviously has a place. some chinese martial arts have groundfighting on higher levels and i dont think groundfighting is against the principles of those that dont.

[Tainan Mantis]

Mei Hwa PM has a traditional ground form called 7th route essentials. It has been said that this is actually the 1st Essentials form created and dates to Liang Hsue Hsiang or older.

A student of Wang Jia, Paul Lin's father's kung fu brother, said that Wei Hsiaotang had this form, but in later years forgot it and so now 8 Step PM has 6 Essentials forms instead of 7. This may be significantly different from the Mei Hwa version, though.

TJPM also has a ground PM form different from the Mei Hwa version.
In their style of Taidzu 64 short strikes exist ground strikes and ground moves. Every technique can be finished on the ground if they don't work standing up. This includes throws, counters and counters to counters.

[PaulLin]

TainanMantis,
There are some ground techniques in 8 step too. But most of them are not in the ZhaiYao. Zhai Yao has about 5 of them. In the list of foundation, there are about 12 of them (need time to check that later). But they are all clean type, not tangle up type.

I am sure your TCMH matis' ground fighting techniques are not the tangle up type. Or are they?

On the 7th-forgotten ground form of what you have heard, I know it like this. It was called Di-Tang, only spread by Shyun. My father heard that long time ago when Shyun told him back in Taiwan. Then my father checked that with GM Wei, he said there is no such form existed. Wang came much later than my father to learn form GM Wei and he is not that close to GM Wei as in talking about all stories. Besides, GM Wei don't like to talking about stories, he want people focus on practicing, he has said that practicing makes true martial arts and talking only making big moth. You have to practicing much harder and longer then you will have a chance to heard little stories form GM Wei.

So if you heard this not form master Wang's own mouth, you can check that with himself.

If yoou heard that form master Wang's own mouth, you can find out if he heard this form GM Wei's own mouth or some one elses mouth.

I am sure GM Wie never did said such thing. There is a short song about 8 step and it mentioned there are 6 ZhaiYaos, not 7.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin
TainanMantis,
I am sure your TCMH matis' ground fighting techniques are not the tangle up type. Or are they?

Whether it is the tangle up type or not has nothing to do with wiz cool c's post stating that all mantis people should learn basic ground positioning and defends to chokes and armbars. It doesnt matter whether or not the ground should be avoided in a fight if someone takes you there and starts to choke you. At that point what matters is if you can defend a choke. Or have i not been in TCMA long enough to see the deeper side that must be trained for decades to see? When people talk about the importance of knowing groundfighting as it relates to TCMA they do not mean the importance of fighting like a BJJ fighter or wrestler. They mean the importance of being able to defend against one.