mantis vs BJJ

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Whether it is the tangle up type or not has nothing to do with wiz cool c's post stating that all mantis people should learn basic ground positioning and defends to chokes and armbars. It doesnt matter whether or not the ground should be avoided in a fight if someone takes you there and starts to choke you. At that point what matters is if you can defend a choke. Or have i not been in TCMA long enough to see the deeper side that must be trained for decades to see? When people talk about the importance of knowing groundfighting as it relates to TCMA they do not mean the importance of fighting like a BJJ fighter or wrestler. They mean the importance of being able to defend against one.

TCMA usually choke stood up. And we trained to stood up. There is a view about if being a human, one must have the head support the heaven and feets rooted on the earth. There are some TCMA doest specialized in ground fight, especially after the Ming Dynasty in the south coast regions. But they are not the main stream in TCMA. The main stream of TCMA still insisted mainly fight on foot and resisting falling on the back. I am not saying that TCMA disgrace ground fight at all, it is just that they would perfer focusing to stay on foot.

I would think it will be very helpful to know BJJ skills, as an 8 step mantis practicioner, but not to practicing BJJ. Instead, I will find the anwer of how to counter BJJ in TCMA style.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin


TCMA usually choke stood up. .

Thats not really what i was saying at all. What i was saying was that its important for TCMA people do be able to use TCMA to counter BJJer/ wrestler choking them while they are on the ground because it is quiet possible for them to end up on the ground when they are fighting someone who only knows how to fight on the ground.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


Thats not really what i was saying at all. What i was saying was that its important for TCMA people do be able to use TCMA to counter BJJer/ wrestler choking them while they are on the ground because it is quiet possible for them to end up on the ground when they are fighting someone who only knows how to fight on the ground.

Gotcha. I think that if one cann't really stay on foot in TCMA, they should go practicing more until they can rather than thinking about fighting. But before they can achieve that level, up on the personal situation needs, it may be a good idea to have some BJJ practicing just in case.

[SevenStar]

Also, remember that there are several BJJers that crosstrain in Judo - that means they have ALOT more throws and excellent balance. they also have several more pinning positions, in adition to the pins and submissions that they already know.

[Brad Souders]

Info: Rolls Gracie Sr. (possibly one of the best grapplers ever) died in a hangglider accident not a plane crash. Close but no cigar

[Life long Student]

Hi all: this is a great thread.
I learned some grappling and ground fighting from Tom Kier, he is now a Tuhon with sayoc. I also learned From Wu chang yi from Taiwan in the 80's. In the 90's I. Went to work as a bouncer and some part time body guard work. In my short years doing this work I learned why Wu said to not go down if at all posable. In the real world while in an altercation no matter how good you are you can't control the terrain. Several altercation in the beginning wound up on a bar floor, I was just lucky, but the person I was dealing with wound up with glass in his body and a trip to an ER. In another I applied a choke it was working fine but my back was slammed into a bar when another person fighting with another bouncer slammed into my guy. I think after 5000 years of history the Chinese learned a few common sense things that took me a little pain to learn. By the way it also explained why Wu said never play fight If you aren't fighting to turn off your opponent you can get hurt trying to be nice.

Food for thought
please excuse my poor ability to translate

[B.Tunks]

SPORT VS REAL

Studying modern ground fighting methods depends on what you want from your martial arts. If you want to 'spar' for sporting reasons and will fight BJJ people with the restrictions of their sport fighting, using straight TLQ, you are at a definite disadvantage. I for one would avoid fighting any of these top level BJJ guys with such restrictions (not without a small hidden knife, ha ha). I dont think you need the 'top mount' etc in your repertoire unless you are planning on engaging in such bouts. If you want TLQ for live combat or self defence you dont need to worry about scrambling around on the floor for 30 minutes trying to escape from, or force a submission.

Life Long wrote:

I also learned From Wu chang yi from Taiwan in the 80's. In the 90's I. Went to work as a bouncer and some part time body guard work. In my short years doing this work I learned why Wu said to not go down if at all posable. In the real world while in an altercation no matter how good you are you can't control the terrain. Several altercation in the beginning wound up on a bar floor, I was just lucky, but the person I was dealing with wound up with glass in his body and a trip to an ER. In another I applied a choke it was working fine but my back was slammed into a bar when another person fighting with another bouncer slammed into my guy. I think after 5000 years of history the Chinese learned a few common sense things that took me a little pain to learn. By the way it also explained why Wu said never play fight If you aren't fighting to turn off your opponent you can get hurt trying to be nice.

I cant agree more with all of this. This is the reality of actual fighting. If you go to ground in any public place you are lucky if you escape with your skull in tact in most cases (I know, I have had the joy of a fractured skull, twice)

You dont want to go to ground unless totally unavoidable and with TLQ the idea is to get up out and of this situation as fast as possible. If someone tries to roll all over me on the ground or pin me with their body in an actual fight, I will bite off anything I can fit in my mouth and then stick my fingers as far in the hole as they can go. Apart from that I will gouge out their eyes or snap their fingers back one by one. These valid methods are all found within our style and are not just animal tactics.

Submission fighting outside of the ring is only found in the school playground these days.
In sport fighting, the greater athlete will always win, not so in real fighting.
B.T

[wiz cool c]

In my opinion judo is the perfect compliment to chinese kung fu. I now consider myself a chen stylist who also studies judo. Judo concentrates on stand up throws. You will gain great balance and know how to fall if you do get thrown and it has enough ground fighting to help ypu if you do go down. In the Chen village tournament in china 1998 tape you can see the best tai chi people go down during moving push hands. There is one match where the guy landed on his downed opponent in the mount position. These are guys who are masters of rooting. So it does happen.

[Life long Student]

Just a question in regard to culture. Aside from the practical, during actual or realistic confrontations. Is it a culture matter? For example, In Malaysia siting or being on the ground is very common and the same with Japan, and I know for the Arabic the bottoms of feet are unclean, and to show them are an insult. Could this also just be a part of there culture that the ground is somehow unclean? Or is it improper to be on? I hope I am not being presumptuous, or rude it is just a thought.

[PaulLin]

As in the internal CMA, for the reason of sinking and rooting at Dan Tien and the hollow clearness of the top torsol to match the heaven space above and earth under, we do like to activate our body vertically, as direct link to the space and earth, if it is possible. It deals with long term qi effects.

External arts some time don't take that as a primary concern, as long as you can get the job done on your movement, every thing can go.

That is my reason for standing up application. If you count culture as a survival method followed by a group of people, I guess you can count that in. But if you see culture as a custom behaivior that may not be practical in some cases, then it is not.

[PaulLin]

For wis cool c, I would like to recommend Shuai Chaio. You may find it interesting after you compare a few good Shuai Chiao artists to Jodo.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Although I stopped playing the mantis awhile back: some thoughts that my plum flower mantis teacher taught me comes to mind. Any type of throw was designed to go directly into the ground not something that you could roll out of, of course in practice with a training partner the angle is changed to allow them to recover (roll out).

i think the use of weapons in the old days tended to discourage the idea of laying on the ground to fight, probably to big an area to keep from getting chopped up.

Most cma that I have come in contact with uses the ground as a weapon, something to derive power from or slam something into.

[wiz cool c]

In judo you almost never roll out of a throw you do a break fall by slapping the mat landing on you side tucking your chin things like that. These work on a wood floor as well. In my kung fu school we do moving push hands chen style with sweep and all. I have taken a few falls using judo falls on the would floor with no problem.

[Life long Student]

Wood is great concrete is OK if smooth, steps suck, parking lots hurt a lot especially when you get small rocks imbedded your knee, or palms. Falling on chairs are the worst. But you usually don't realize the extent of your injures until after, or until someone says "hay you are bleeding" On the other hand these are all great when aiming you opponent into them.

[Merryprankster]

You dont want to go to ground unless totally unavoidable and with TLQ the idea is to get up out and of this situation as fast as possible.

Agreed! Your chances of doing this are FAR better when you actually know how to move around down there.

If someone tries to roll all over me on the ground or pin me with their body in an actual fight, I will bite off anything I can fit in my mouth and then stick my fingers as far in the hole as they can go. Apart from that I will gouge out their eyes or snap their fingers back one by one.

Please tell me you don't think this is the "answer?" There's really no substitute for learning to escape and get up properly.

These valid methods are all found within our style and are not just animal tactics.

Not exactly rocket science, is it? I mean let say a wrestler puts you on the ground. Can't he eye-gouge you too? Or snap your fingers? Or just knee your face into hamburger?