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Thread: mantis vs BJJ

  1. #61
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    reality

    True having an idea and some first hand knowledge is smart. Even if you get injured you will still be alive. Just leave it up to a last ditch effort.
    If the sky is blue and every one calls it something else it is still blue

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by Merryprankster


    Agreed! Your chances of doing this are FAR better when you actually know how to move around down there.



    Please tell me you don't think this is the "answer?" There's really no substitute for learning to escape and get up properly.



    Not exactly rocket science, is it? I mean let say a wrestler puts you on the ground. Can't he eye-gouge you too? Or snap your fingers? Or just knee your face into hamburger?
    I don't agree with the biting and poking as primary idea of ground situation. In CMA throwing, an ideal grib position must be present for a throw and take down. I would take the primary concern as to how not to let your opponent get such position in the first place. Secondly, I would perfer to chose moves with join and body weight control. If you try to use your own strenght to support your self while your opponent is free to make moves on you, you will be done for in no time. It is better to have your opponent carry your body weight and you control his join.

    The eye poking will be consider in the same group as pressure point technique. That is what I think I will do.

  3. #63
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    Hi all,

    Paul Lin wrote:
    I don't agree with the biting and poking as primary idea of ground situation.

    I also dont agree that it should be the 'primary idea'. But when and if you are out wrestled on the ground these are certainly useful.

    Merry Prankster wrote:
    Please tell me you don't think this is the "answer?" There's really no substitute for learning to escape and get up properly.

    What is 'properly'? I agree that these are not the only, or 'primary' methods but are certainly valid.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These valid methods are all found within our style and are not just animal tactics.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not exactly rocket science, is it?

    No, not at all. It's fighting.

    >I mean let say a wrestler puts you on the ground.

    yes.

    >Can't he eye-gouge you too?

    yes.

    >Or snap your fingers?

    yes.

    >Or just knee your face into hamburger?

    Unlikely (where are your hands while he has the leverage to 'knee your face into a hamburger' whilst in a position of disadvantage in a ground fighting situation?), but still possible.
    Whats the point here?
    Yes, anyone can do these things in a fight but an inexperienced idiot will get himself even more hurt trying to do so. My point was; if you cannot fight as well on the ground and end up being dominated by a superior ground fighter, there are many ways to defeat their tactics including finger popping and biting amongst other things (such as attacking the groin, armpits, ears or mouth). Of course one would try to have smashed the opponents head in well before this stage (of course using such 'gentlemanly' and refined techniques as Pi Chui, Pan Zhou etc), whilst in the more comfortable upright position.
    If you are pinned in a real fight by a tactically better or stronger ground fighter, and have exhausted your options then I dont suggest you hold back on such unrefined attacks, as you have definitely failed in your task and are most likely in big trouble (unless its one of those school yard fights that I mentioned or the opponent is a big hearted softie who was only trying to teach you a lesson(good luck with that one, ha ha)). And if it wasnt life threatening in the first place, then why the hell were you fighting???

    I merely wanted to point out that there is a very big difference between controlled and real fighting (real meaning; life threatening) and that the whole BJJ thing can be looked at in a totally different light. You are welcome to disagree.

    My personal gripe with going to ground is that it ruins my clothing and scratches up my shoes.

  4. #64
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    Unlikely (where are your hands while he has the leverage to 'knee your face into a hamburger' whilst in a position of disadvantage in a ground fighting situation?), but still possible.
    Not at all unlikely, unfortunately. Front Headlocks (not to be confused with the 'help I don't know what I'm doing desperation head grab'), the north-south pin position and regular wrestling/judo/BJJ style side pins all offer excellent opportunities to turn somebody's face into a bloody mess with your knees while keeping the arms cleared.

    What is 'properly'? I agree that these are not the only, or 'primary' methods but are certainly valid.
    Learning to get up properly is learning to escape inferior positions to get back to your feet while minimizing damage.

    If you are pinned in a real fight by a tactically better or stronger ground fighter, and have exhausted your options then I dont suggest you hold back on such unrefined attacks, as you have definitely failed in your task and are most likely in big trouble (unless its one of those school yard fights that I mentioned or the opponent is a big hearted softie who was only trying to teach you a lesson(good luck with that one, ha ha)). And if it wasnt life threatening in the first place, then why the hell were you fighting???
    Fair enough.

    I merely wanted to point out that there is a very big difference between controlled and real fighting (real meaning; life threatening) and that the whole BJJ thing can be looked at in a totally different light.
    Agreed. But with the caveat that ANY art must then be looked at in a different light. Why? Because the truth is that we all practice under a set of rules. While there are certainly rules in sportive arts, there are rules in the training hall as well. Both sets are designed to allow maximum efficacy and technique use, while minimizing risk of injury as much as possible under the inherently violent circumstances. Different rule sets offer different advantages or disadvantages--but are training restrictions nonetheless.

    My point is more that while such tactics are without a doubt valid in the context of self-defense, they certainly shouldn't be relied on. After all, you have to learn to fight standing before these sorts of things are useful standing. Otherwise, you can't do them very well because you're lacking a solid base to work from. Same thing with the groundwork. The "dirty" tactics are far more effective if you actually have a base to work from.

    That said, there's nothing wrong with using them--they just aren't "the answer," in much the same way as kneeing somebody in the groin or punching them in the throat isn't "the answer" while on your feet.

    There is a fundamental difference between moving on the ground and fighting on your feet. Learning a bit about it would vastly improve the chances of effectively using these tactics.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  5. #65
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    Agreed on all points except:

    That said, there's nothing wrong with using them--they just aren't "the answer," in much the same way as kneeing somebody in the groin or punching them in the throat isn't "the answer" while on your feet.


    In accordance with everything I have learnt in Mantis Boxing they are the answer while fighting on your feet (majority of Tanglang techniques directly attack the throat or groin). Why punch the face or kick the leg when you can punch the throat or kick the groin?

    Granted, never during sparring.

    I understand we are talking about two different fighting conditions and of course I would never bite someone or attack the groin during sparring. However, if overpowered on the ground in a real fight and left with no other option, I certainly will.

    interesting topic!

  6. #66
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    Post rules and sport

    One interesting point that metioned is the rules that make MA like a sport. I know that in CMA training, for the training purpose, not real situation applying purpose, there are rules that issolate some selected factors out, so the practian can focus on the parts that was designed to train on. However, many trainers forgot to put the issolation back out when considering it is a complete applying system rather than training system. For example, Tai Chi pushing hands has issolate many factors for focus on listening, sticking, fa jing, rooting, etc. However, in a real fighting situation, you don't stand there and having a fixed Pung position and wait to attach your opponent at the wrist. You have to know how to handle real stikes and then can use stick, and so on.

    In mantis, we have fixed 2 man forms, but they are not the final application. The final application have no rules nor fixed moves, of course. So many people are mistaking about how good they are with the system by learning the "ruled application." Until they really meet a real "nonrule" situation, then they will know how much the system they really have.

    Many throws has the position to break head, arm, neck, ribs, or grin right at the position of landing, no waiting for positioning needed. Many throws are also including breaking strikes before or during the throw. A well carried out throw do not let your opponent land saftly or comfortablly. For all that reasons, if you are capable to use bite or poking after being thrown, only if your opponent can't or didn't want to finish you off as it should. "Not a primary" choice I metioned is that I don't wish to have a situation of fighting a low skilled person who don't know how to finish up properly and still being thown by this person, or bitting a person who don't intend to finish me off, just want to show me a move.
    Last edited by PaulLin; 09-23-2003 at 02:21 PM.

  7. #67
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    In accordance with everything I have learnt in Mantis Boxing they are the answer while fighting on your feet (majority of Tanglang techniques directly attack the throat or groin). Why punch the face or kick the leg when you can punch the throat or kick the groin?
    While I don't doubt this, my point here is that you aren't just told "Strike the throat! Attack the groin!" You're taught how to properly fight, but have those targets in mind.

    If the "throat and groin" were "the answer" then nobody would actually have to learn how to fight. They aren't magic bullets and have to be matched with an appropriate delivery system. Nuclear warheads are very potent--provided you can get them to the target!

    In mantis, we have fixed 2 man forms, but they are not the final application. The final application have no rules nor fixed moves, of course. So many people are mistaking about how good they are with the system by learning the "ruled application." Until they really meet a real "nonrule" situation, then they will know how much the system they really have.
    Yeah. I would include lightly thrown techniques that are "recognized" as fight-stoppers by the sparring partner in the mix and certain "sport" moves that have low applicability in a fight or potential for danger.

    What this all boils down to is your awareness as a fighter at that point.

    Many throws has the position to break head, arm, neck, ribs, or grin right at the position of landing, no waiting for positioning needed. Many throws are also including breaking strikes before or during the throw. A well carried out throw do not let your opponent land saftly or comfortablly. For all that reasons, if you are capable to use bite or poking after being thrown, only if your opponent can't or didn't want to finish you off as it should.
    I think we need to get away from the idea of "should," and think more about the idea of "could." A throw CAN land so that you break or get knocked out. That said, I've landed on my head an neck more than once and been ok. I also know people with permanent injuries from the same stuff, so I'm not knocking its effectiveness. I'm suggesting that "should" is a bit misleading. Throws CAN incapacitate but we should be ready to follow-up in the most appropriate manner (situationally dependant).
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  8. #68
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    Post

    Originally posted by Merryprankster


    I think we need to get away from the idea of "should," and think more about the idea of "could." A throw CAN land so that you break or get knocked out. That said, I've landed on my head an neck more than once and been ok. I also know people with permanent injuries from the same stuff, so I'm not knocking its effectiveness. I'm suggesting that "should" is a bit misleading. Throws CAN incapacitate but we should be ready to follow-up in the most appropriate manner (situationally dependant).
    Agree, and please excuse my English. In this case, I should use "could" instead of "should" to express what I was thinking.

    To have a back up plan B is always good idea, I would never against it. In fact, you should have more than one follow-up moves in your bag. However, too much relying on follow-up COULD wash off the quality of the foundamental first move. It is a balance the artist must choose wisely to train with.

  9. #69

    Been doing Judo for a little bit now...

    New town, new job... I get a free YMCA membership at the place I work, so I decided to start doing Judo to help my throwing in San Shou competitions...

    I know Judo's not BJJ, but BJJ is a derivative of Judo.

    I honestly can't answer the question, which style is better, or which is more effective, yada yada yada. They are just so different from one another, yet 7 star and Judo complement each other very very very well. The Judo grip maximizes strength in the pinky, ring, and middle fingers just like PM, so grip work has been easy... without getting too boring, all I can say is that it really is apples and oranges. I'd have to say that PM seems a lot more deadly/brutal, but, Judo is d@mn cool too.

    My first love will always be 7* but I've been having a lot of fun studying Judo.

    I will say this though, the mindset of the Judo people is different than the 7* people that I know. To get a black belt in the USJA, you have to either spend about 8 yrs in Judo, or gain points by winning competitions. Because of the competitive aspect, the Judo guys are less recreational and more focused in training. There's a lot of sweat and blood in a Judo dojo.

  10. #70
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    MANTIS VS BBJ

    Salaam alaikum, hello everyone,

    It would be rediculous for one to think that Praying Mantis style can be used to defend oneself against brazillian jui jitsu. Brazillian jui jitsu is one of the most challenging warfare of taking the opponent to the ground and performing joint locks that can easily put someone into submission or completely break their bones. Now the way to defend against something like this is avoid getting on the ground! That means you must take them out before they get you off balance for once you on the ground you better be good if you want to tangle with a BBJ fighter. Ofcourse though while on the ground biting could be affective against anyone. But the point is the only good defense ON THE GROUND against BBJ is BBJ. But if i were to go up against a bbj fighter i would most surely try to take the person out before it is brought to the ground.

    Juan Ali

  11. #71
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    Post Re: MANTIS VS BBJ

    Originally posted by seijinkumo
    Salaam alaikum, hello everyone,

    It would be rediculous for one to think that Praying Mantis style can be used to defend oneself against brazillian jui jitsu. Brazillian jui jitsu is one of the most challenging warfare of taking the opponent to the ground and performing joint locks that can easily put someone into submission or completely break their bones. Now the way to defend against something like this is avoid getting on the ground! That means you must take them out before they get you off balance for once you on the ground you better be good if you want to tangle with a BBJ fighter. Ofcourse though while on the ground biting could be affective against anyone. But the point is the only good defense ON THE GROUND against BBJ is BBJ. But if i were to go up against a bbj fighter i would most surely try to take the person out before it is brought to the ground.

    Juan Ali
    BJJ is a perfect skill when there is only one opponent, the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters.

    If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened.

  12. #72
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    Paul Lin wrote:

    BJJ is a perfect skill when there is only one opponent, the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters.

    If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened.

    -I could not agree more and could not have said it any better.

  13. #73
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    BJJ is a perfect skill when there is only one opponent, the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters.
    Sigh.

    If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened.
    Double Sigh.

    -I could not agree more and could not have said it any better.
    Triple Sigh.

    Amazing. People really talk out of both sides of their mouths around here.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  14. #74
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    Paul brought up some interesting additional points that I had not, and that I agreed with.
    Say what you want about fighting tactics but dont talk about my mouth or how I use it. You dont know me personally so it's quite a rude assumption and I haven't once been rude to you during this 'discussion'.
    I'm glad you love BJJ so much. I am however, free to dislike it equally (seeing this is a Mantis Boxing forum it is a likely possibility).
    It is obvious that in your mind BJJ is supreme. How do we argue with that?
    As a matter of interest, what kind of Tanglang do you study and why do you bother? (as it seems to be so redundant).

  15. #75
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    Ahem.

    People give an art its due then turn around and speak of it dismissively.

    I call that talking out of both sides of your mouth. You may call it whatever you like. My intent wasn't to be rude, just to remark on what I consider a logical inconsistency. At any rate, I DO owe an explanation so....

    BJJ is a great art for when there is a 300 lbs idiot on top of you, who tackled you from behind in a bar because he felt like it, and now you're on the ground with this big lug who is pinning you down trying to mess up your nose or beat on your skull and his mates are coming at you from across the bar to give you a good bootstomping--not just one on one.

    Now, I realize that many arts have ways of getting up, but in BJJ, you spend a tremendous amount of time becoming comfortable with the ground and learning to get up without getting stomped in. It's not easy to move with a 300 lbs man on top of you and there is no guarentee that you will be in a position to counter it well. You may just **** him off with what you try. A solid groundfighting base--be it BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or wrestling, gives you a very big leg up when trying to escape from somebody who doesn't want you to. Knowing how to move down there complements anything else you do because you can put yourself in a better position to do it. It's an issue of focus, not superiority.

    Secondly, sometimes it's not about "the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters." This is a fallacious argument. The idea that BJJ only works on somebody who is somehow lacking in their training is wrong. The issue is one of how much better is the BJJer at opening the doors than you are at closing them (or vice versa?). Combat is a relationship--it's not a positive one, but it is entirely relative. It doesn't matter how GOOD you are--it only matters that you are better than your opponent.

    Thirdly, 'If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened." This again, is fallacious. It's an issue of relativity. If I'm controlling your movement, how do you hit that pressure point? It's really not as easy as it seems. Could it be done--absolutely--but it's MUCH HARDER if you don't know how to move down there and the other guy does. A decent BJJer has you off-balance as much as possible and is constantly attacking your wrists, arms, hands and neck. It's really hard to aim that way--and if you aren't familiar with moving on the ground and what to watch out for it's hard NOT to be offbalance and constantly on the defensive.

    Finally, you agreed with a statement that Paul Lin made on perceived limitations of BJJ that I disagree with. I "sigh" because it's a tired argument to me--this is not your fault, it's just same-old, same-old. "BJJ only works one-on-one! BJJ puts you in a dangerous position! BJJ etc..." It's just as bad as the "BJJ beats everything everywhere everytime" comments. The truth is that BJJ teaches you how to move on the ground and drastically increases your chances of attaining a favorable, or escape position, in a fight. The bottom line is that the only thing that is probably worse in a fight than winding up on your back with a 300 lbs guy on top is having to stay there.

    BJJ/Judo/Sambo/Wrestling all help you learn how NOT to stay there, rather well.

    I know that we'd all prefer to train to stay on our feet. This is the smartest course of action, absolutely, in 99% of the situations you encounter. But in a world of what-if's, it's not a bad idea to have some significant, organized, systematic groundfighting experience under your belt.

    I don't practice Tanglang. I'm a BJJ/Judo/Wrestler with some minor boxing experience. I'm also not disparaging Tanglang. At least, I'm pretty sure I didn't anywhere. At the end of the day if you want to figure out how to use your stuff on the ground, you have to go find somebody who really knows groundwork to train your stuff on/with. You can't train it occasionally with somebody who doesn't really know how to do it. It's got to be regular and frequent--THEN you can make your praying mantis (or whatever) work down there.
    Last edited by Merryprankster; 10-06-2003 at 03:10 AM.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

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