mantis vs BJJ

[B.Tunks]

Bottom line is I agreed with what he said, doesn't matter how wrong I am and whether or not I agreed with you earlier (I thought you had some good points). At that time I didnt want to speak on the things Paul later brought up (gates, pressure points etc) but when he wrote them I agreed with them and wanted to let him know. He is a respected Tanglang practitioner and I can understand his perspective on the matter from a 'Tanglang' POV.

I'm no two-faced, talking out of both sides of my mouth idiot.
I didnt want to get into an argument with you about BJJ vs Tanglang as you are obviously very confident in your art (which is good and will ensure you fight well using your chosen system).
I didn't want to talk around in endless circles with the 'my style is better than your style' thing. I am as tired of one sided bull**** as you are and am far more interested in hearing other peoples well informed thoughts (including yours), than wasting my time typing **** like this.

I dont know why you chose to paint me as some little clown especially after I treated your opinions with respect (being that they are obviously the product of a lot of fighting experience).

For the record, I practiced judo for 6 years and freestyle and olympic wrestling for 2 years, along with a lot of chinese wrestling and some jiu jitsu and have also spent hours rolling around the ground with marchado and gracie jiujitsu practitioners who have trained extensively in Brazil. I am not a starry eyed brainwashed kungfu addict who has no idea about the 'real world' of ground fighting.

Personally I prefer not to go to ground and I believe there are other methods that work for me.

[Merryprankster]

Umm...no problem.

I really wasn't trying to start a fight.

I dont know why you chose to paint me as some little clown especially after I treated your opinions with respect (being that they are obviously the product of a lot of fighting experience).

I didn't or it wasn't my intention. Sorry you took offense. I already apologized (or attempted to do so, apparently poorly) for projecting past experiences and my exasperation with them w/regards to 'pros and cons' of the systems onto your comments. I'm not really sure what else I can do. We could fight for it!

I would hesitate to call my opinions the product of a lot of fighting experience. One MMA fight and a few hundred grappling matches of various sorts probably don't really count as fighting.

For the record, I practiced judo for 6 years and freestyle and olympic wrestling for 2 years, along with a lot of chinese wrestling and some jiu jitsu and have also spent hours rolling around the ground with marchado and gracie jiujitsu practitioners who have trained extensively in Brazil.

Precisely my point--you have a MUCH better chance of getting your PM to work on the ground than somebody who doesn't do these things--and of getting up....

I am not a starry eyed brainwashed kungfu addict who has no idea about the 'real world' of ground fighting.

Clearly not.

Personally I prefer not to go to ground and I believe there are other methods that work for me.

Perfectly reasonable.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Now, I realize that many arts have ways of getting up, but in BJJ, you spend a tremendous amount of time becoming comfortable with the ground and learning to get up without getting stomped in. It's not easy to move with a 300 lbs man on top of you and there is no guarentee that you will be in a position to counter it well. You may just **** him off with what you try. A solid groundfighting base--be it BJJ, Judo, Sambo, or wrestling, gives you a very big leg up when trying to escape from somebody who doesn't want you to. Knowing how to move down there complements anything else you do because you can put yourself in a better position to do it. It's an issue of focus, not superiority.

Secondly, sometimes it's not about "the opponent can't defend his/her doors and let the position opened, the opponent can't deal thowing and counters, and the opponent can't deal with join locks and counters." This is a fallacious argument. The idea that BJJ only works on somebody who is somehow lacking in their training is wrong. The issue is one of how much better is the BJJer at opening the doors than you are at closing them (or vice versa?). Combat is a relationship--it's not a positive one, but it is entirely relative. It doesn't matter how GOOD you are--it only matters that you are better than your opponent.

Thirdly, 'If you ask a pressure point master, he/she would say BJJ is almost suicidal to left all the vital points opened." This again, is fallacious. It's an issue of relativity. If I'm controlling your movement, how do you hit that pressure point? It's really not as easy as it seems. Could it be done--absolutely--but it's MUCH HARDER if you don't know how to move down there and the other guy does. A decent BJJer has you off-balance as much as possible and is constantly attacking your wrists, arms, hands and neck. It's really hard to aim that way--and if you aren't familiar with moving on the ground and what to watch out for it's hard NOT to be offbalance and constantly on the defensive.

Finally, you agreed with a statement that Paul Lin made on perceived limitations of BJJ that I disagree with. I "sigh" because it's a tired argument to me--this is not your fault, it's just same-old, same-old. "BJJ only works one-on-one! BJJ puts you in a dangerous position! BJJ etc..." It's just as bad as the "BJJ beats everything everywhere everytime" comments. The truth is that BJJ teaches you how to move on the ground and drastically increases your chances of attaining a favorable, or escape position, in a fight. The bottom line is that the only thing that is probably worse in a fight than winding up on your back with a 300 lbs guy on top is having to stay there.

BJJ/Judo/Sambo/Wrestling all help you learn how NOT to stay there, rather well.

I know that we'd all prefer to train to stay on our feet. This is the smartest course of action, absolutely, in 99% of the situations you encounter. But in a world of what-if's, it's not a bad idea to have some significant, organized, systematic groundfighting experience under your belt.

I don't practice Tanglang. I'm a BJJ/Judo/Wrestler with some minor boxing experience. I'm also not disparaging Tanglang. At least, I'm pretty sure I didn't anywhere. At the end of the day if you want to figure out how to use your stuff on the ground, you have to go find somebody who really knows groundwork to train your stuff on/with. You can't train it occasionally with somebody who doesn't really know how to do it. It's got to be regular and frequent--THEN you can make your praying mantis (or whatever) work down there.

To say some one else's statement is a fallacious argument is a very serious accuse. You are taking the person's integrity into the account. It is as serious as putting up a chellenge to dule.

You are perdictablly not to understand how to train in drill to make the rooting, door guarding, throwing, joing locking, and pressure point attacking. All you have known is get on the ground and work you move and learn form your experiences. In fact, you shouldn't separate my points, they are all related and supporting one and another in order to make them work. The point you should come out of it is that if you can't firm your root and guard your doors, don't espect to work well in throwing, joing locking, and pressure point attacks. Go back to drill and train more. Until you are at "master" level, then you can make it work.

And please do read carefully, I have never said BJJ "ONLY" works on the ground with one opponent. I said it is "perfect" work that way. And I am not saying BJJ only works on people who knows nothing, it says when the situation that when the opponent is unalbe to complish some functions, then BJJ would work.

In no way I have said about any superiorty of any style. Even the best player with the best skill could have a bad hair day. It depends on many factors.

I you have a question, just ask, don't make a statement to defame other people's integrity. If you try to take me down off my feet, then I can show you what parts of training that BJJ has never included. It is better than making a loose cannon statement and twist the meaning of other people's words.

[Merryprankster]

Agh!

*Insert Panic Here*

Paul Lin,

I keep forgetting that english is not your first language! I probably overreacted anyway, especially in light of that fact.

That said, "fallacious" doesn't mean that I am calling your integrity into doubt. It means that the argument either reaches a conclusion improperly, or that the assumptions at the root of the argument are incorrect. In no way does it defame your character.

While I may not believe your argument or reasons are right, that is simply a disagreement between two opinions. I am not calling you a liar or a bad person. In fact, you have always been exceptionally gracious.

In fact, you shouldn't separate my points, they are all related and supporting one and another in order to make them work. The point you should come out of it is that if you can't firm your root and guard your doors, don't espect to work well in throwing, joing locking, and pressure point attacks. Go back to drill and train more. Until you are at "master" level, then you can make it work.

Agreed--regardless of your chosen style!

I said it is "perfect" work that way.

I agree with this as well--BJJ is primarily concerned with one attacker.

And I am not saying BJJ only works on people who knows nothing, it says when the situation that when the opponent is unalbe to complish some functions, then BJJ would work.

Ah--this I disagree with--sometimes, even if you are very good at something, the other person is as good or better at overcoming that. In this case, it's less that YOU did something wrong--the other person did what they do better.

If you try to take me down off my feet, then I can show you what parts of training that BJJ has never included.

That SPORT BJJ has never included. Many focus on self-defense and work on stuff like this. Roy Harris, for instance, has a whole strategy for dealing with biters and pressure point attacks. The Dog Brothers work with weapons, etc.

I suffer no personal illusion. I'm a sport guy. I'm not terribly interested in self-defense.

It is better than making a loose cannon statement and twist the meaning of other people's words.

I DID over-react--especially in light of the language barrier. However, I emphasize again that I was not attempting to call your honesty into question. I disagree with parts of your argument--but do not believe you are a bad person or dishonest!

[B.Tunks]

I understand you. It is a bit hard to communicate via these forums without misunderstandings at times.
B.T

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Agh!

*Insert Panic Here*

Paul Lin,

I keep forgetting that english is not your first language! I probably overreacted anyway, especially in light of that fact.

That said, "fallacious" doesn't mean that I am calling your integrity into doubt. It means that the argument either reaches a conclusion improperly, or that the assumptions at the root of the argument are incorrect. In no way does it defame your character.

While I may not believe your argument or reasons are right, that is simply a disagreement between two opinions. I am not calling you a liar or a bad person. In fact, you have always been exceptionally gracious.



Ah--this I disagree with--sometimes, even if you are very good at something, the other person is as good or better at overcoming that. In this case, it's less that YOU did something wrong--the other person did what they do better.

First, sorry if my English make you misunderstand what I am saying in the first place. I should add that "if there is any thing that didn't sound correct, it could be my language barrier and may not be what you think it is" at the end of all my statements.

"Fallacious" is a word I hated very much. I have one record that I am keeping due to my hatred towards it--I have never lied in my life. I may make mistake statements but I alway speak of the truth of what I know, never said anything that I know is not true. According to the current book I am reading on the art of war (it is called "Plain Book", used by Zhang Liang in the Han dynasty, not many people know this book), this hatred of mine can very well be my weakness and used by others against me. So I am working very hard not to react so much to it, just keep it inside myself.

About the point that you have disagreed with me, I think I own you a further explanation. The way we have experienced in our art, when you are at higher level, you will find more difficult to be the attacker. By a solid training of rooting, body solidifying, door guarding, you will left a very few choice to attack. Especially you can't reatch out far, as further you reatched out, more leaking in the doors. One must traing to have powerful legs and balance to shoot out with whole body to strike longer distance. If you can't hold your own balance and be ready to follow up with next move at the end of the previous move, you will have go back to foundation drills training. The strikes are much more powerful and controlled with whole body rather than reatched out limps. And it left no open doors. It is not what I have seen with the fighter out there who tilt body to the side and have door opened regularly almost every strikes. I have not seen any techniques shown (include BJJ) that has a chance of breaking inside the doors unless you can't keep them closed properly. If you can be tricked to open your door or over powered, then I don't really called that is a person with a good door guarding skill, it is not good enough and should go back and train more until it is a reflex reaction with solid foundation.

I have not seen how you can trick or overcome the door guards in any ways, so I can only said what I have known. If there is any thing sounds funny, it may be my language barrier, and please do point them out. Thanks.

[Merryprankster]

B.Tunks/PaulLin;

Whew! Glad that's over! I admit to getting crotchety, personally...it seems sometimes we just all go round in circles about who does what best...and that seemed where we were headed. I forgot that PaulLin is not a native English speaker, so it's my responsibility to ask for clarification.

Paul Lin--When somebody uses the word fallacious, what they are saying is that they don't agree with your argument because they think parts of it are wrong. It doesn't mean that anybody is lying. It's more like when two people have a disagreement about politics. Somebody might think that one way of thinking about something makes more sense than another way, so they might call the other argument a fallacy. They are both honest people with a different opinion. I think it's perfectly acceptable to become angry when people call you a liar.

About the point that you have disagreed with me, I think I own you a further explanation. The way we have experienced in our art, when you are at higher level, you will find more difficult to be the attacker. By a solid training of rooting, body solidifying, door guarding, you will left a very few choice to attack. Especially you can't reatch out far, as further you reatched out, more leaking in the doors.

I agree!

If you can't hold your own balance and be ready to follow up with next move at the end of the previous move, you will have go back to foundation drills training.

I agree again! I spend more time drilling my basics these days than anything else. At white belt, I thought I was learning them. At blue belt, I thought I was starting to get the hang of it. Now, at purple belt, I'm pretty sure I don't know what I'm doing yet.

I have not seen any techniques shown (include BJJ) that has a chance of breaking inside the doors unless you can't keep them closed properly.

This I take some issue with. To me, a fight is relative. I'd like to be perfect all the time and I'd like my skill to be so good that I am able to always stop my attacker. However, combat skill is relative. To a beginner, all my doors are closed, no matter what I do. To my instructor, all my doors are open no matter what I do. I want, of course, to be able to train so that I reach the same, or better level as my instructor.

However, competition has taught me that even the best have people who can beat them! Occasionally, you get what we call a "phenom" who is just amazing at everything--Rickson Gracie is apparently the BJJ phenom--the best in the world have sparred with him and they say he treats them like babies. Anyway, it's not that these guys aren't good--it's just that Rickson is better.

In an ideal world, if we could do everything perfectly, I agree with what you say--we'd learn what we are learning so well that our opponent would be almost helpless. In an ideal world, between two perfect masters, sparring would be the counter to the counter to the counter, and nobody would get anywhere.

[BeiTangLang]

Umm,...guys,....not to sound like a mod or anything,...but;
can I shut this topic down yet??

[darksands]

Steal the Peach... I win. Now you may shut this thread down...

[PaulLin]

I still have something to say, but nomater how many words I can put down, it is not better than just one face to face hand on discussion.

To be more detailed, it is the external 3 harmonies--hands and feets, elbows and knees, shoulders and hips--that I would strongly suggested about guarding the door. Also the 3 points on one line concept. The sinking hips also has to be strictly enforced. The triangle legs and bow-arrow stance and steps must be there too.

Well, too much to say, just hope you can come down to Orange County, CA some time so I can show you, then we can see exactly what we are talking about. I will leave it off since some other people are fed up with this.