for Teachers ONLY

[TenTigers]

This goes out to teachers only-because I would like to hear honest answers from teachers rather than macho bravado from youngsters. Here's a hypothetical situation-sort of:
Let's say you had a student in a tournament-(medium body contact, light head contact, to the sides or top of the headgear, no face,) and his opponent either nails him one, probably deliberately, or..due to excessive contact, it breaks out into a fight. What advice do you give your student? Do they blast him back and go tit for tat, eye for an eye, do they take the higher road, and not brawl, but protect themselves, do they walk out of the ring, because the opponent is out of control and has a disregard for the rules, and the refs don't care, or don't know any better, or just can't do their job, and it's not worth the piece of crap medal? Remember, your students not only represent you and your ability as a teacher, but your morality as well. I am not really interested in macho teachers who live vicariously through their students, or sacrifice their students, disregarding their safety just so they can appear tough or baddass.

[Merryprankster]

What constitutes a teacher?

Anyway, how about this idea from a fairly experienced competitor:

Your student takes it to the level the other guy takes it to, so long as the referree is ignoring his job. Why? Because he has to protect himself. Just covering up isn't acceptable because if the ref is as bad as you say, he may not stop the fight, and bad things can happen.

YOU need to have the cojones to step in and separate the fighters if it's getting out of hand, and then go talk to the organizers of the event if the refs aren't doing their job.

[guohuen]

Personally I think the student should follow the rules. A hard body blow or two might be acceptable to "wake up" the opponent.If the student has any skills they should not have to brawl or leave.

[wushu chik]

Personally, I think it matters on if the refs are calling the illegal shots or not. I have had this happen MANY times with my students, and if the refs are calling POINTS on the illegal shots, I tell my students to start giving to them what they are getting.

~Wen~

[Merryprankster]

Wushu,

Exactly so. That's what I was trying to get at.

But if it escalates to where somebody is in danger, that's more where I was shooting from.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'm with Merryprankster on this one.

I once saw a gight where one of Wai Lun Choi's 'brown belts' was manhandling a Kuk Sool Won '8th degree master'. At the break, the Kuk Sool was obviously ****ed off at being slapped around like a baby, and popped the Xing Yi guy in the mouth after the bell rang. The refs disqualified him then and there, which was good for him, as the Xing Yi guy was a good sport and was giving the Kuk Sool guy face by NOT dropping him in the fight.

Oh, if only there had been a second round!

[Xebsball]

Youre all wrong, shame on you.

I think you should give the referee a big hug.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by TenTigers
....and his opponent either nails him one, probably deliberately, or..due to excessive contact, it breaks out into a fight....

These are three different situations. Excessive contact can just be a mistake or a product of the heat of the moment. If a fighter was going beyond the agreed power level deliberately, then I would base my decision on the ability of my fighter If he wanted to continue. Either way I would be complaining to the ref. If it escalated to a out and out free for all I would pull him out immediatly and give hell to the appropriate people. That guy's teacher would hear a few choice words from me too.

[lkfmdc]

The fundamental problem with any style of "point fighting" is that 1) it isn't really fighting and 2) no one can agree on definitions. YOu have those who think it's "safe" because it is not "full contact" but the reality is that anytime a foot or fist comes in your direction it is dangerous. And you have people who want it to be a "real fight" and blast with every shot.

Years ago, we ran "point fighting" at the same time as the San Shou. Not a single injury in San Shou, the point fighting was a blood bath. Do San Shou (or some other kind of full contact) and you know you are going to be hit hard and can hit BACK...

Otherwise, it is a no win situation

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't have a school, but I'm aspiring toward one.


If that were my student that GAVE the cheap shot, I'd probably ask the referee to pull him from the tournament unless it was truly accidental.

If that were my student that TOOK the cheap shot and the referee blatantly let it go, I'd immediately pull my student from the contest. The welfare of my student means more to me than some referee's decision.


My thing as an aspiring sifu is that though passions get heated in the eventuality of competition, no contest should degenerate into fighting.

[Stacey]

not a sifu, but help with class.


Anyways, there are places to hide such as clinching. I don't beleive that there is such thing as light contact. That is for the insurrance companies. I think you should stay in the context of the rules and fight your fight.

I've been to a few tourneys. Someone always cheats. The refs usually don't see it or do anything. Show them the little cheating tricks so that they can be aware of them and train them well enough so that they don't need to use them.

Violence after the fight is different and the noble thing to do is to arm lock the guy. If he needs a flick to the nuts to soften him up for the arm lock then fine. I don't see this as immoral because the students interest would be in immobilizing for the safety of both parties.

If the student is only provoked and not actually attacked then he should take the higher road and ignore the guy with quiet dignity.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Maybe I read too fast. I agree with SA here, point fighting is well, pointless. What I was getting at was dealing with someone who aggressively does not stick to the structure of the game. In my example, a cheap shot after they broke up.

It also be hitting below the belt in boxing or any dozen rules. All sport figfhts prettty much have some kind of mutually agreed upon rules. When someone has bad manners, and the ref isn't handling it, it is up to the student to escalate as needed. But always with more restraint thaan the initiator - never a reason to 'lose it.'

[DF]

Politics will always be there in form, point and continous fighting. Just because the rules are not for full contact, there will always be those who try to take advantage of the competitors who try to follow the spirit of the rules. The center ref is the most important person in the ring to control the situtation but that is not always the case. I agree with Ikfmdc that full contact is the way to go, either it is shan sou, koshu or mma. The competitors know what the deal is and are both mentally and physically prepare for it. I see more "blood bath" in these so call contiinous fighting then in any full contact tourny. Also in my experiance, the techniques are cleaner in full contact then in point.

Going back to the original question, my answer will be , let the student do what he has to do. If the other side want to pick it up and the ref don't care, then lets pick it up. If I feel my student is not ready for that, then I will step in and have a word with the ref.

DF

[Royal Dragon]

I once saw a gight where one of Wai Lun Choi's 'brown belts' was manhandling a Kuk Sool Won '8th degree master'

Reply]
Wai Lun Choi issues Rank? Since when? As far as I know, he just teaches. One day you just realize your a senior with him.


Any way, back to the subject. I would recomend continuing as if nothing happnend UNLESS there is actual danger to the competitor. Then he should do what ever he feels is nessary to defend himself.

Reasoning:
The reffing sux, and that being the case, the judgeing may too. Since your not going to get a fair shot anyway, it's best to play it straight so the rep of the school is upheld with the crow t least, BUT if it gets to the point that your competitor feel legitimately threatened, since competiton has no value anyway, and his own self protection is a higher priority, he should fight back, as hard as nessasary to neutralize the threat.

Also, YOUR rep is on the line to. Although of MUCH lesser importance than the welfare of your fighter, it's good for the your schools rep when the crowd sees your guy stand up and kick ass if his opponent justly deserves it.

If no one is stepping in, and things are getting out of hand, you MUST do so and break it up, however unpopular it may apear. The fighter's safety is top priority.

[Wongsifu]

the way i see it theres a difference between the opponent losing control through anger / through excitement / through desire to win or through the simple fact that he was stepping in when the opponent was also stepping in and punching.
I would treat all cases differently, but if the opponent was being c@cky and hitting him full contact deliberately i would tell my student to break every bone in his body to teach him a lesson. It is martial arts were discussing, after all not knitting class.
Otherwise if the otherguy was desparate to win and over excited i would tell my student to be wiser and not retaliate with equal force