Rooting

[EnterTheWhip]

Could there be more than one....? Hmmmm...

[planetwc]

I can't speak for gnugear.
But I do attend Ken's school.

We do train to be relatively low in stance and in footwork. And especially in the sets.

The idea is not that you trained low for a long time and so when you chi sao you get to stand up. It is that it is there when you need it and it leads to the connection aspect which Rev Temerity mentioned which is the more important point. In most situations, Ken does not have to be in his low stance to deal with his students, and his connection is present even when higher. That said, when he needs it, it is there and it is what he trains, when he does the sets, the dummy and the weapons.

It is not about how low you go vato :P
It's all about connections.

It is about developing a ground path connection and to have the skill to utilize a lower center of gravity (from a lower stance) and to be able to compress and then send your structure and energy forward (not up). And of course the ability which is basic to all of our respective Wing Chun to direct energy off the point of contact and down the path to the ground. (Pressure the arm and feel the energy sent down to the feet)

The way in which that is trained within the Leung Sheung lineage is via the low stance or strong "horse".

So when Ken wants to optimize his power, he would drop into the stance (compression) and then just go right through you, all the while staying on the same vertical plane, once the desired level is reached.

Whereas someone Ben Der's size might simply use the lower stance to change the structural distance between you and him.
One moment he is in reach of you, the next he isn't and if you want to HIT him, you're going to have to move to do so. Whereas he won't and it's now his game. Taiji might use dan tien rotation to do that, with Wing Chun it is more in the horse.

As to the question of other direct Leung Sheung students, a few years ago about 6 of them visited Ken's old SF school on Leland.
We had an open forum with them, were we the students were free to ask anything of them about how they were taught, their basic stances, Hand positions etc.

This was done without them having seen what Ken was teaching us. As Ken said, "Now it is time to see if what I'm telling you I learned from Leung Sheung can be verified". Now that's confidence.

I videotaped most of this and long story short: What they demonstrated and responded to is what Ken is teaching us. These were individuals who started as students with Leung Sheung at a variety of times (some way before Ken, some at the same time, some after).

To continue, we also follow the principle that you should not be bobbing up and down during the sets or working out. That is the goal. Those ****her along the path can adhere to that better than those who are not there in skill level or endurance.

Originally posted by churn-ging
So when you are practiceing your footwork, do you still stay low in a deep stance or do you come up higher?

The reason I'm asking is because I was taught that the the basic wc stance measures the perfect height for your fighting stance. It doesn't matter whether your in a front lead, turning, stepping front, back, or whatever. The height of your head should never change and you shouldn't be bobbing up and down when moving.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by sunkuen
you seem like your defending those pictures...WHY.

just answering a question.

[Zhuge Liang]

Say what you will about Red, but at least he makes an effort to be civil. I don't see the point in trying to bait him with pictures of Ken and sarcastic out-of-context remarks. The beginning post is nothing but flame bait, and says much about the maturity of the poster.

These pictures are not so confusing if you understand the context of which they were taken. I think that however, no matter what explanation anyone can provide, there will always be immature trolls out there somewhere who like to cause trouble. It gets to the point where you wonder why you even bother saying anything at all. But occassionally you find something useful, and things don't seem so bad. So in that spirit, and in the spirit of open communication and open information, I will attempt to comment of these pictures in hope that it might be useful, or at least clarify things, to someone.

Btw, I'm a student of Ken's and I've been studying with him for about a year and a half. These are merely my observations, and in no way do I attempt to speak for him. Any errors are mine.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...cs02_pic10.jpg

Ken is not always in a low stance. He advocates one fist distance for training purposes, to build up the knees. When his purpose is to show us correct form and posture, he does indeed get in a low stance. Other times, when he's demonstrating other things, such as applications, he doesn't always go into a low stance if he doesn't need to, as others have pointed out.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...cs02_pic28.jpg

Very often, Ken will act as a guinea pig to allow as student to test out a concept. For instance, he will get into a correct posture and ask you to push him/apply pressure/whatever. You won't be able to. Then he'll adjust something like tightening up his chest, raising his shoulders, turning his head, etc., to show you the feeling if his posture is wrong. He ask you to push again and in this case you can successfully uproot him. Then he goes back and forth between correct and incorrect so that you can learn *feel* the difference between correct and incorrect.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...cs02_pic05.jpg

This is just one of the demos Ken uses to describe a concept. Actually, he has several points to make from this position, and I don't know which one he's explaining in the picture, so I'm not going to bother guessing at it.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...cs02_pic20.jpg

Just your standard YGKYM stance. Judging from his hands, he's probably saying something about the knees and being settled. Of course, he's always saying something about the knees and being settled.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...cs02_pic21.jpg

I haven't gotten this far so I can't comment on it. But I would like to see someone holding a pole at chest level with their elbows further in than that.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...ng_posture.jpg

One of the basic five concepts for proper structure that we have is "head straight." Ken is simply straightening the head of one of the students.

http://w1.314.telia.com/~u31421377/c...n_bong_sau.jpg

This is from Ken's earlier days when he did wing chun a bit differently. He does chum kiu differently now. Same movements, but more attention to posture optimization and being settled.


Zhuge Liang

[sunkuen]

" In most situations, Ken does not have to be in his low stance to deal with his students, and his connection is present even when higher. That said, when he needs it, it is there and it is what he trains, when he does the sets, the dummy and the weapons.

It is not about how low you go vato :P
It's all about connections."

WoW!!!

Could this possibly be the same for anybody else!!! Maybe what red5angel has seen at other schools is that very same thing!!! Could this be?

[gnugear]

WoW!!!

Could this possibly be the same for anybody else!!! Maybe what red5angel has seen at other schools is that very same thing!!! Could this be?

From what I understand, Red has seen other Wing Chun, and in comparison it is not the same thing.

[sunkuen]

sheesh....I don't see anything that was said against ken or carl or anyone for that matter. Maybe as you look at the pictures, deep down inside you think it looks like crap, and thats why you felt the need to defend. Those very same pics have shown me the way. My stance is already deeper thnx to those pictures. God I feel ROOTED right now....it's almost mystical.

[S.Teebas]

Thanks kj for the responce.

Your are correct that my sigung has higher stance, and yes he can redirect the force of others amazingly well

TST demonstrated redirecting the force of some huge guys at the last VTAA conference, while standing on on leg. (ont he vtaa cd)

I think Enter the Whip may be on to somthing, because form the things ive seen and heard... there probably are different stances: however, i think they all proved a different 'tact' or way of dealing with a situation. They are each effective in their own way. But i think you would have to study indepth to really understand both.

I personally cant see how you can stay AS relaxed or move with as much freedom...if your in such a low stance (yes, from experience). But by the same token, i can understand how the Leung Sheung guys wouldn't know how i can think my higher stance is AS stable as their strong base etc... (??)

Preferences, different emphasis...what is important to one may differ to another for multipe reasons.

[planetwc]

seeekuen,

Gee you got him there.

And I'm sure the "you think it looks like CRAP, and thats why you need to defend" coupled with your last two sentences below aren't saying anything smart a$$, condescending or sarcastic either eh?

Such sincerity. Deep down I think we now know where the crap is, you're ROOTED in it. All that Yak See training is paying off at last.

Originally posted by sunkuen
sheesh....I don't see anything that was said against ken or carl or anyone for that matter. Maybe as you look at the pictures, deep down inside you think it looks like crap, and thats why you felt the need to defend. Those very same pics have shown me the way. My stance is already deeper thnx to those pictures. God I feel ROOTED right now....it's almost mystical.

[kj]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Thanks kj for the responce.

My pleasure.

Your are correct that my sigung has higher stance, and yes he can redirect the force of others amazingly well

TST demonstrated redirecting the force of some huge guys at the last VTAA conference, while standing on on leg. (ont he vtaa cd)

I saw it. I've heard a lot of good things about him too, not the least of which from my own sifu.

I personally cant see how you can stay AS relaxed or move with as much freedom...if your in such a low stance (yes, from experience).

Well, that's not to say it is easy on the legs! We just work hard to make it easier over time. Interestingly, however - as already well described by the likes of PlanetWC, Rev, and Zhuge - with practice, students almost universally find, at least for a time, that our preferred body alignment, connection, ability to redirect forces, and "zhiang dai lik" become more effective and optimized when the stance is lowered. This is in addition to the lowered center of gravity. So these are some of the benefits I increasingly enjoy in exchange for the agony, LOL.

The stance work does become easier with practice and time. Meanwhile, we savor the bitterness. I don't presume the training challenge is ever totally eliminated, though.

But by the same token, i can understand how the Leung Sheung guys wouldn't know how i can think my higher stance is AS stable as their strong base etc... (??)

Well, maybe some of the Leung Sheung guys. In addition to the reasons already given for our stance training, I also value it because of the integral "fit" with other aspects our approach.

I don't at all doubt the efficacy of some other stances. I've met some phenomenal taiji masters, for example, and wouldn't dream of criticizing when they adopt a higher stance, or challenge their root, LOL. For that matter, I wouldn't get too free with my criticisms of my Hung Ga friend's stancework either. It seems to me, at least, that a chosen stance and training method is more than the ability to root and transmit forces, but also this matter of integration with other aspects of the selected approach.

Preferences, different emphasis...what is important to one may differ to another for multipe reasons.

Agreed.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[sunkuen]

How do all you guy's stay so rooted while jumping to all these conclusions???

p.s. "seeekuen".......please, my three year old daughter has more imagination!!!

[TzuChan]

Rather retarded post if you ask me, if the teacher was simply explaining a drill that had been shown before, and he doesn't 'root' like you want it to be in your perfect world, that doesn't mean his Sifu sucks ass. My Sifu, WT, won't get in his horse stance either if he just wants me to show how to do that block for the 200th time.. You're taking this way out of context, you're basically reasoning blindly, the man is innocent untill proven guilty, pictures are no proof as far as I know ..

[sunkuen]

Who was accusing anybody of anything? It was posted to show the world the alledged superiority of that particular lineage. If there are pictures that you feel would be more appropriate, please feel free to post them or the links to them. As of yet I have not seen anything else worthy of submitting to this forum from this lineage. Apparently this is as good as it gets.....Looks great to me so far.

R.I.P

Sunkuen

[byond]

the "point" , imo, of sunkuens post is obvious.....certain posters always and i mean always critique wc practitoners that are 3 or 4 generations there senior as well as 40+ years chronological there senior. i m sick of hearing " how sloppy the elbows are and how high the stance is ...and oh that doesnt look like wc to me"......
people sometimes get a taste of there own medicine and wind up not enjoying the taste...

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by byond
the "point" , imo, of sunkuens post is obvious.....

ok, but do you see the point in flamebaiting? Could he have made is point in a different manner? Or do you think trolling justifiable in this case?

Zhuge Liang