Fist patterns

[nospam]

I think fist patterns are the bane of modern day gung fu.

Too many students are more interested in learning as many patterns as possible. Too much time and effort is placed on fist patterns. Too many kwoons (business operators) realise the demand (interest) and revenue potential (falls in line with belt ranking systems - tests) for having a great variety of patterns (hand and weapons) to offer. Too many teachers and students alike accept as true that fist patterns and reality do not correlate - we train one way but fight another??!??

I'm sorry, but if most of the above is true, then why the H E double L are we spending so much time dancing? And IMNSHO, gung fu attracts in greater numbers a certain breed of person that the other MAs do not - more than likely due to an unrealistic idea of what gung fu is based on waay to many movies and story books. And 87% of the kwoons out there feed into this perception.

And although I agree, fist patterns are a great way to exercise, and if used properly can be a cup half-full in a students progression. But come on! For a great number of folks, there's a hole in dat cup Dear Liza.

So, are fist patterns the curse of modern day gung fu?

Of course then there are those who are not 'in' to gung fu for the fighting aspects, but can't do the splits or fly like crazed squirrels so wushu is out. Some go to what I call 'modern taiqi'. The majority are sucked into the brothels of 'authentic CMA- Yessss. Pwease. Come in. I teach 5 diifrent Traditional CMAs. I be Massster in All. I have my plane ticket of authenticity to prove. Come. We get you nice ssssssilk authentic Traditonal CMA uniform with bwack sash. See Mr. Smith. He sign you up. Sign on dotted line. Oh, and please make your check payable to Mi Suk Yuen.

nospam.

[Serpent]

Most amusing. In a caustic mood today, nospam?

Come on, you know better than that. The caraciture at the end of your post attracts a certain brand of clientele, which is fine. The real people find the real teachers. Caveat emptor.

And as for patterns. Well, the benefits are endless and infinitely more than just an exercise and a dance. You know that too, right? Just don't neglect your basics and fundamentals.

Remember the old addage:

Fear not the man that knows a thousand techniques. Fear the man that knows a single technique and has practised it a thousand times!

Well, the secret message in there is really:

Truly fear the man that knows a thousands techniques and has practised them all a thousand times!

[Maestro1700]

Fear not the man that knows a thousand techniques. Fear the man that knows a single technique and has practised it a thousand times!

all this is supposed to teach someone is that kung fu is practice, and only through practice can they become great

everyone should know this who performs any activity that requires endurance, skill etc

practice makes perfect is more simpler and makes the same point

but when applying it to a martial art pov, then no practiceing "1" kick isnt going to make you great, whoever thinks this isnt thinking correctly

kung fu is practice..and practice is the key to mastering kung fu, but the reason there are so many sets is for different situations in different environments, against different opponents etc so why not know as much as you can..its not like no one is telling you once youve mastered a form/set etc that you can or never should practice it again..actually most great masters do practice some of the most basic forms over and over because they know the power in them

also another reason why some arts like kung fu are so vast is becuase they are a lifelong commitment, thats also why kung fu is so great, its endless..this shouldnt be concieved as a bad thing

[yutyeesam]

what we have more of I think is options. martial arts has become a mcdonalds/kfc/arbys,etc. You have your fighting schools, you have your forms schools, you have your forms with some fighting schools, you have your fighting with some forms schools.

My question is what compels people to take martial arts in the first place? Typical answers sounds like an order at McDonalds:

I'd like some combat training, some exercise, some Asian Culture, some Jet Li moves, and a large order of fries. To go.

This may sound Buddhist or whatever, but I really think we consume too much of our time worrying about what other people think. We worry too much about goals. We worry, worry, worry...must get better!! Must get to the next level! Worry, worry, worry. What about practicing for the sake of practicing? If we do that, does it matter how many forms there are?

123

[Paul]

what are these fist patterns that you speak of?

Speaking as basically a beginner.........

the only reason I'm learning kung fu is for the fighting aspects, to be totally honest about it. (If I wouldn't have found my current teacher I would have most likely given up on kung fu as being worthless). **** all that romantic **** about honor and buddism and whatever else.

I will say though that I do like learning forms. where's the controversy?

yes if all you do are forms and never fight, you are most likely a puss y. ok. pretty easy to fathom.

[nospam]

Practise does make perfect, but if I am practising fist patterns that have moves I will not use nor practically prescribe to, then what am I practising to get better in? Fist patterns.

And of course beginner students will like fist patterns. Their cool and there's so many to learn. Not to mention I need to learn anywhere from 2-3 per level/belt. The mindset is to learn the patterns. Drill the patterns. I know I'll use them at some time. I'll put hours upon hours of practise in on my patterns. Mind set established: Fist Patterns=Gung Fu.

How many of you have been asked to show your gung fu? What is the first thing you more than likely did? Riffle off a line in a pattern. Is the pattern your gung fu? Would not a more true reflection of one's gung fu be to attack or block an attack or a combo of both? Mind set established: Fist Patterns=Gung Fu.

Posts on this Board read: yeah, patterns are great but a lot of the technique's are not practical - patterns are more for stretch and exercise and to engrain moves and putting more than one move together. And yet this is followed often by, although we don't fight that way. Mind set established: Fist Patterns=Gung Fu? Hmmm..not in this case. It seems a double standard is present. Perhaps this has been drilled in, imprinted into our psyche for far too many generations. Perhaps gung fu has simply changed with the Times. More is better. Better what?

What if gung fu didn't have fist patterns? Would you still be involved? Would your gung fu be where it is today or at a different level all together? Or would you be in a MA that prescribes 80% of it's time practising/learning fist patterns?

I'm sure your gung fu is good. I'm not questioning individuals, but a system of thouhgt. But what is your gung fu? I bet most have great 'gung fu fist patterns' and mediocre 'gung fu fighting' or perhaps good fighting skills established on 20% of just sparring. Think about how we might be if 90% of our time was geared around gung fu fighting. Well, gung fu is a great hobby.

How well do you use/adhere to your foundation/basics when sparring?

nospam.

[apoweyn]

nospam,

that was a really excellent post.

[fa_jing]

Wing Chun has only 3 fist patterns, and we spend only about 10% of our class time on this. Additionally, all techniques contained in our forms are useful fighting techniques.

I am actually jonesing for more fist patterns. But, your post is true of other CMA schools I've seen.

-FJ

[mantis108]

I posted this on a different forum concerning forms/fist pattern.

"It is such a great topic. I used to be not a big fan of forms but now I UNDERSTAND that forms are the motherload of a style and to a large extend the survival of a system.

First and foremost we have to understand that system and style are two different things. Most people don't make that distinction and that's where the problem arrises in determining whether forms are valuable or not.

To simplify thing, system is objective and globle while style is subjective and local. Ideally, system is the mother and style is the child. Without the nurturing of the mother the child is not going to be healthy.

In traditional Chinese martial arts (TCMA), a sophisticated system has 4 pillars:

Ti (physical attributes) - expression of inner most experiences through the human body be it abstract thoughts (ie Taiji) or natural stimuli (ie animal behaviors). Praying Mantis Kung Fu is an example of natural stimuli.

Yong (metaphysical attributes) - expressions of human body translated into combative format.

Kong (Concises) - brief but comprehensive body of work regarding fighting principles and/or strategies.

Ling (Insights) - usually in literal works such as couplets, sonnets, poems, etc. But can also be single words that pertain to principles or techniques. This is highly system specific.

The above would eventually expressed in 2 types of forms: fighting forms (Quan) and Conditioning forms (Jia).

These forms all have their own designs. For example, fighting forms are highly structural. They are designed according to the believe systems or philosophies of the founder(s) of the system. There also check mechanisms (i.e. partnered forms) to prevent tempering of the structures of forms which are made up of core/theme techniques and transitional techniques. The flows of the forms is the rhythmicity of the founder of the system. So if you change the form, you are in essence changing the rhythm or flow of the system. To a large degree, you are not "seeing" the founders' fighting POV anymore. So forms need to be carefully studied if you are indeed going to preserve the intellectual property of the pass masters. Then of course people are free to do what they like with fighting which is not really martial arts limited to."

I have to add that the main reason behind dissing forms is that most who diss form practice do not understand what I would call the Long Fist Protocol which is the proper way to learn forms. This is not really their fault. It is there is no overall standard in transmitting CMA. So those who are not fortunate enough to find the good teachers end up being short changed and misinformed. It is rather unfortunate but it a fact in the CMA world.

Mantis108

[Fu-Pow]

I have to add that the main reason behind dissing forms is that most who diss form practice do not understand what I would call the Long Fist Protocol which is the proper way to learn forms

What is the long fist protocol?

[David Jamieson]

Kung fu is transcendence of technique. But without technique, you can't transcend.

Kuen or fist patterns are a method to achieve a result which can be tested.

I don't think they are obsolete. I think that we graduate so slowly through our own skill that sometimes when we get to a point where we have transcended a technique, we look back and say to ourselves "why did I do this that way".

But, we have to recognize that the only reason we are asking this question is because we have done the hard work.

When transcendance has taken place, and it may not be a totality but only an aspect, then less repitition of patten is required. The pattern should become second nature. Left, right, back, forth, action, reaction, it should all be absorbed into you.

For the beginner, pattern are the first door to understanding. The yin/yang of it is that understanding leads to the creation of the patterns.

peace

[nospam]

But during this transcendence are we progressively enabling the essence of the pattern?

If the fist pattern is a tool used to build understanding or as you say Kung Lek - a method to achieve a result which can be tested - are we always aware or moving towards the desired or optimal result? Here is where I say the proof is in the kwoon.

The fist pattern being a tool, the tool should be used to build, in the least, a piece that will be later installed with other pieces to form or fabricate a finished product - perhaps this finished product being the trascendence you speak of, Kung Lek. Or perhaps not.

For if we are advancing in our ability to perform and understand a fist pattern, are we implicitly moving closer to being able to use this ability in an actual fight or just in our ability to perform a particular set or pattern of techniques?

99.9% of MAists, especially gung fuers say real fighting does not look like fist patterns. I hear that to believe any fight would, is not realistic. Why then, I ask, is so much time, effort, and importance placed on progressive fist patterns!? If I say one thing and do another. Is there transcendence of all this time, effort and importance to my fighting ability? Or is it merely that I have spent all this time, effort and importance on building my skill in performing fist patterns.

Another point, rarely is there a MAist who is good in both patterns and fighting. I believe this is an accepted adage by many. We all get pumped at watching gung fu movies, but the only time we move like that is when we are perforing the tool as opposed to using it to build, progress, transcend to....

Indeed. Movies are movies. But if we remove fist patterns from gung fu, is it gung fu as you would define it? Are 124 fist patterns better or enable my skill and ability more than having only 4 fist patterns?

Let's face it. Most of us do not like fighting on a consistant basis, especially if it is semi to almost full or full contact. It gets tiresome. Fist patterns are a nice break. But as I am expending all this energy learning these patterns (and for many MAists, having to pay to be tested to be told we are proficient in them! But are we using this so called proficiency? Plus, why would I be tested in my use of a tool? Does it not make more sense to show or be tested on what the tool built?), am I taking this back to my fighting. And if my fighting looks different from my patterns, then I ask, why the heck practise the patterns in a manner I know I will not even put to use.

nospam.

[yutyeesam]

hence, JKD

[Fu-Pow]

I guess I look at fist patterns as a "encyclopedia" of movement.

It doesn't mean that you are going to use every movement in the exact combination as it appears in the form. It is just an idea of how things COULD fit together.

Free fighting is definitely different than form practice. You kind of have to let your preconceptions go and flow within moment. But it doesn't render forms irrelevant. Forms are the knowledge that you draw from to complement your basics.

If any of you are musicians you might appreciate this analogy. The forms are like the scales, a real fight is like the improvised solo.

But you can't improvise without knowing the scales first.

Another observation is that when you reach a certain level of skill you kind of start making up your own forms. You start thinking of new ways to fit movements and techniques together.

Its very spontaneous and usually occurs when you're not really concentrating on anything. This is probably how the large majority forms were invented. Daydreams, so to speak.


Ciao

[Maestro1700]

nospam..the reason there are so many techinques bla bla bla is becuase in the past alot of chinese people had to fight..and since there were so many of them they developed more and more systems and styles and techniques for different people etc and the more you knew the better off you were, and the more likely you were to live longer

and the reason people dont HAVE to use patterns etc in a real fight is because most people are weak enough that you dont need to..most people can be subdued with a simple technique like a leg sweep etc