visualisation

[prana]

This might stir up some arguments but please keep it at peace. And no one is allowed to practise what I say, cause my words should be no more than words, not a guidance, not even a hint.....

Anyways, I have been thinking how to explain this visualisation versus simply letting the mind find the paths.

So here is my little analogy

Allowing the mind to find its own path, it like descensing from the thick cloud of doubt, and realising there are a whole bunch of roads beneath this mess.

Visualisation is akin to using our teachers knowledge and your own faith, to map out the roads even before descending through this cloud of doubt, to map out the roads.

I practised both, and in my ignorant opinion, I now solely practise the latter because its faster for me. However, I would never say one is better than the other.

OK ... peace

[mono68]

Prana: My two cents of the subject is visualisation can be applied for health and healing pruposes. In the medical field some MD's are incorperating the concept of "Mind over matter" approximately 10yrs age I met this Physical therapist who fractured his ankle while skiing. it usually takes 6weeks for bones to heal on average. He took a class on this concept of visualizing the bone and the healing of it. It took him 3 weeks instead of 6weeks also his rehab for normal gait was also cut in half. He was a believer and he amazed me. I believe in this.

[dezhen2001]

prana: interesting explanation. When doing my soft qigong, the main thing i seem to do is just try to stay relaxed and let the movements flow. Not concentrate on any specific thing. Hard qigong uses 3 methods of breathing to do certain things with the Qi (i think i told you before?). But when i'm doing meditation afterwards, i guess i use a bit of both...

I first have to relax my whole body, usually i remember what my Sifu says to us in class, and work through that. Then i relax and breathe, and slowly bring my attention to the dantien. But after a whie, it seems like i even forget that

Mono68: interesting information, thanks

david

[Wongsifu]

hey prana just browsing through like i do 1nce a month...
how about rising above the mind and the roads and let everything happen accordign to the will.....
no need to visualise or to be tangled in the web of messes

[harry_the_monk]

Prana,

my thoughts...

I think that letting the mind find its own path is great if you have a very disciplined mind. One which doesn't dart all over the place after sitting for a few minutes.

For those of us who tend to have more active minds I think that visualisaton can help. Hopefully when you say you only practise the latter you also take some time to practise sinay meditation as well. I spend half my time on both practise(visualisation + shinay). When I am doing a puja, obviously it is different

I like the anology of the clouds and seeing the roads open in front (makes me do some visualisations already )

All religions have visualisation as part of their practise, I also tend to use mantras, another thing also shared by other religions. We all will have our own way of getting to the top of the mountain, I wish everyone luck on their path.

OM MANI PEME HUNG

[dezhen2001]

What do you guys do when u have lots of different thoughts? and how does that affect your visualisation?

I know that we're often told to let the thoughts come and pass, and sometimes even to use one thought to 'rid yourself of 1000 other thoughts'. Is that a type of 'visualisation' or letting the mind calm and find it's own way?

interesting topic. i get to see more about buddhist qigong than i have before

david

[prana]

dez

What do you guys do when u have lots of different thoughts? and how does that affect your visualisation?

There are a few methods, but I only use a few

1. To use one thought to curb other thoughts, usually a thought of purity
2. To give no food for the thought, hence starve the thought
3. To watch the though like a doctor watches a patient in pain
4. To rest the mind in the unattachable, the breath, simply bringing the mind back to breathe when we realise it has wandered.

(THERE IS MORE but this is all I know)

I know that we're often told to let the thoughts come and pass, and sometimes even to use one thought to 'rid yourself of 1000 other thoughts'. .Is that a type of 'visualisation' or letting the mind calm and find it's own way?

My interpretation is not strong, so I wont say its one or the other.

The mind is in nature pure. When ones mind is not scattered, and ones thought is not reactive (non-dual), the mind naturally returns to its original state, empty. At this point, the mind is already finding its own path, the breath is very slow and calm; and the energy has already entered into the "spiritual" path... (I cant say much more than that)

[dezhen2001]

Hi Prana, interesting

I guess that i've used methods 1, 3 and 4 from your 'list'. Sometimes i count the breath until i can just relax, or if my mind wanders. I find that to work for me very well personally. Sometimes also, i just let my thoughts come and pass, until my mind eventually becomes calm. I guess that's letting the mind find it's own way. Sometimes it takes a while though!

I'd be interested in hearing what you mean by 'purity'? If it's easy enough to explain online of course.

Also, is there a method of letting the Qi also 'find it's own way'? Without guiding it or anything? If you know what i mean...?

Anyway, all the best there,
take care,

david

[Nexus]

The chi will find its own path if the pathways in the body are clean and clear. Guiding the chi is often a method of helping unblock channels that have stagnation and blockages. Just as by living healthy and purifying yourself spiritually you to begin to be guided by life.

[prana]

Hi Dezhen

I guess that i've used methods 1, 3 and 4 from your 'list'. Sometimes i count the breath until i can just relax, or if my mind wanders. I find that to work for me very well personally. Sometimes also, i just let my thoughts come and pass, until my mind eventually becomes calm. I guess that's letting the mind find it's own way. Sometimes it takes a while though!

I'd be interested in hearing what you mean by 'purity'? If it's easy enough to explain online of course.

Sure, I'll try but my explanations are retarded...

Purity is like Son of god JC is to Christians, or Mother Mary is to Catholics, or Buddha Amitabha is to pureland Buddhists. They are the symbolic embodiment of what is utterly and stainlessly pure. It is their symbol of complete purity of body, speech and mind....

Also, is there a method of letting the Qi also 'find it's own way'? Without guiding it or anything? If you know what i mean...?

I think Nexus is sharing a very practical explanation.

For me, I think of it differently. As long as the mind is not scattered and is competely empty in thought, and the breathe has almost completely ceased, you know that point where you dont even know if you are breathing anymore (TjD, you said you experienced this already) the energy is already centralised. In effect it is already in the spiritual path, prajna.

Actually this happens in sleep, everynight. But the trick is to be able to remain aware of it, and yet, be able to fall asleep naturally

[dezhen2001]

Thanks for the explanations Nexus and Prana

So you meditate on the 'symbol' of Buddha or some other Bodhisvatta (Kuan Yin for example) for 'purity'? You're right, it is hard to explain hehe.

As long as the mind is not scattered and is competely empty in thought, and the breathe has almost completely ceased, you know that point where you dont even know if you are breathing anymore (TjD, you said you experienced this already) the energy is already centralised.

Sometimes when i have done meditation after my Qigong practise something similar to this has happened. It's taken a long time for my thoughts to come and pass, then it's hard to explain. Kinda like not being aware of my breath and even time, just letting everything happen their own way. My mind feels clear and totally relaxed as well. I feel 'connected' with my whole body and breathing together. I can't really explain

Interesting discussion

david

[harry_the_monk]

Prana,

Do you find that you can be aware of these states more during sleep now?
I find that during my meditation I can feel these states coming on, but lack the control to settle in the state. I tend to either wake myself fully or find myself in a full on dream

dez,
I think I may know what you are explaining, it is a kind of feeling I get when I meditate straight after doing my yoga practise. I find this different to my sitting meditation though, which I am not sure of what the implications may be.

[dezhen2001]

Harry: thx for your response I'm not a Buddhist or anything, so I generally only practise my meditation after Qigong practise. I also do some Zhan Zhuang and horse stance training. So maybe that's the reason (?)

david

[TjD]

the buddha said that mindfulness was the refuge of the mind

when my mind is all off and jumping about; or more often there is a thought i need to actively get out of my head, mindfulness often does the trick

giving your utmost attention to every sound you hear, and everything you see and feel often gives the mind no extra energy for those thoughts, which dissapear after awhile - given no energy/attention they go away

the best part about this is that it can be done 24/7, and wherever you happen to be at the moment

it seems lately im running around in this state about 70% of the time its done a lovely job of keeping my mind clear, peaceful and in order

it seems to be the best way for me


i read some great article by the dalai lama about how the mind works, and it came down to the fact that the mind is a creature of habit, if you usually have an agitated mind now, chances are without some effort your mind will be more aggitated in the future. your mind does what it is used to doing - by replacing an aggitated mind with a calm mind often, you can promote those states, and with enough practice make them natural in the future


peace
travis

[TjD]

i have the same 'problem' with sleeping by the end of the day im feeling quite mindful, and my mind is rather calm - however i end up sleeping and most of my days work has gone to waste by my dreams!

i wake up in the morning and my mind is going like a broken record and i have to start clearing it all over again


im hoping with enough practice that my daily work will being to spill over into my dreams - and stop interupting my mindfulness

i'm not very good at lucid dreaming - however im hoping if i keep it on my mind enough, it will be natural to stay mindful in my dreams

peace
travis