Why not MORE Xingyi???

[KC Elbows]

Blackdoaist,

I wasn't actually meaning to disagree with you. Most of everything is cr@p. I merely have a small sample of hsing yi guys to judge from in KC, and they are actually quite a bit better than most kung fu teachers out here. I can believe there's a lot of bad hsing yi out there, but here, most of the bad practitioners gravitate towards arts they falsely percieve to have more prestige.

[blacktaoist]

Tadzio) there are some others XY masters that will tell you that they teach foreigners, but in reality, you are not getting the real thing.

BT)You make a valid point, but my opinion is, a person should be able to tell if the style their learning authentic. If a person can't distinguish if the internal method their learning is genuine or fake, then I have to say they must be just dump, or the person never had any living encountering experience with a real Martial art teachers that teach a genuine fighting system.

Also there are many Chinese practitioners that are fakes, So just because a person go to China to learn don't mean a thing, I have been to China a few Times with my Sifu, and seen good and bad. You have some Chinese that know they $hit and thats not many when it comes to utilizing their method in a actual sparring situation.

Then there is the Chinese teachers that will teach foreigners that come to China to learn, endless forms without any correct body mechanics or martial function. This way of teaching is geared for dump foreigners and americans, that don't have any actual hardcore martial art training.

My Yin style teacher Chen Xiao Ping would say: The one that hard practice will know, the ones that don't practice hard will never know.

So the bottom line is, to know if you are getting the real thing, you first have to be real with yourself, and establish realistic traing goals in your quest.

KC Elbows) I don't dispute all what you said, I agree with what most you said, I just feel there are only a few people that can utilize Hsing Yi or any internal style in any real combat situation. My viewpoint is I love the internal martial arts, But I hate the fakes, Like I said today mostly all you will see is people talking esoteric fighting methods and practicing endless forms, Dance and talking Bull$hit theory with no real martial training, is what most of today internal martial art is all about.

There are many fakes, but few real practitoners, that gos for chinese and nonchinese teachers.

[Tadzio]

Cd, thanks for the compliments. As for what people from Cartmel's school were saying about me, well, different people have different point of views, and I actually don't care what they say, to be honest with you I am busy trainning. I will just say that I fought (friendly matches) against BJJ figters, Thai boxing, Full contact, Kickboxing and I did ok, very ok. I am sure a lot of guys ut there are able to use XY for real, so I am just one more. A normal guy.

Also CD, you are right about my school back in Brazil www.xingyitchuen.com.br
My teacher has this very straight and nononsense aproach to XY, and can definetely use XY in a fight. He's that good; but, again, there are many good guys all over.

When I said that I believe that you need time to get to the point where you will be able to fight using XY, I meant exac. that; that it takes time. I think that tuishou and the 2 men forms are the entry gate to free sparring in XY. The forms are fixed patterns between 2 people, but after a while you are expected to do the forms using dfferent mutations from the fixed movements, and that's where the fun begins. But, above all, if you want to be good in fighting, you gotta fight. Once, many years ago, back in Brazil, there was an interview by one of Yip man's son (forgot wich one), and the guy was asking him how lomg should you train stick habds; Mr Yip answered: " How good do you want to be at sticky hands?" ---- Never forgot this answer.

BT, I agree with you that a person should be able to distinguish good KF from fake KF, but I totally disagree that they are dumb if they can't; let me explain. Lets consider XY, for example. The first condition to begin to learn a XY style is that you have to totally trust your teacher. Why? Only because you do things that seem totally stupid. You teacer tells you that to begin, you need to do 30 minutes of santishi everyday, that you have to work on 5 strabge forms of punching. You fell unconfortable doing santishi, don't fell any qi and feel even more unconfortable doing the fists, so you have to trust your teacher 100 percent. He tells you to do this, and because you trust him, you will do. If he's teaching you right and you are training right, in a couple of months you will have the results and will be sure that you are training with a real guy, if not, something is wrong. But until you get to this point, unless you have previous training experience, it's just too difficult to say if he's real or not.

As for coming to China and not geting the real thing, yes, of course it could happen. You have good and bad teacers anywhere. But beeing close to the source my friend, is always good. )

Finally, I couldn't agree more when you say that you have to be real with yourself.
Good luck with your training.
T.

[maoshan]

First, Let's get this straight.

If your learning The internal, Chances are that you began in another MA. As for if they are real or not. and if your getting the real thing. All teachers look for talent. If you don't have the talent
you are tought the commercial. An d will never graduate to learning the higher aspects. As for the trust aspect. In china this may be true. But as far as anybody else is concerned. they look for the talent, not many people have the true body of a martial artist nor can they move correctly. This is inborn.n Most teachers don't want to waste thier time. If you can't do the basics that they show you how can you expect more.

From and experianced percpective my brother is right.
you should be able to tell if your teacher is good or not. If your that blind then you need to be taken. because thats an idiot.
People take the MA's to learn self-defence. If the teacher can't kick some a$$ What's the point.
He'd have no students
But then again today it's all about the money and forms.

maoshan

[CD Lee]

Maoshan - Yes, some people simply will not have the physical abilities or balance to do this stuff well. I don't see how any of the five fists could possibly work without a well coordinated step, and a solid ridgepole. However, with those two things, and intention, the fists can be devestating. I cannot imagine the teacher can take a student very far at all, if any, if they simply work, but cannot get the basics down. McKarate schools can teach right over those shortcoming because they don't really require that level of skill, although their good students certainly will have the natural skills to be good at internals. I think your point on talent is true.

Tadzio - very cool website and great pictures. I have always been curious, seeing how there are so many bad practitioners in any art form including lower level boxers, how good a lot of the guys in Brazil are at BJJ compared to what we have seen on TV with their very best such as the Gracies. The reason I ask is for reality. If you were to meet a western boxer in a match, you would probably not find someone remotely close in skills or fighting to a worldclass top 10 fighter, such as Vargas, Trinidad, Ayala, Lewis, Barrera, Tapia, etc, etc. Those guys are incredibly skilled at boxing way beyond normal boxers. From what you have seen in BJJ locally, how much of a gap have you seen in skill and fighting ability with the Gracies or others like them and the regular guys learning for self defence?

[razakdigital]

From what you have seen in BJJ locally, how much of a gap have you seen in skill and fighting ability with the Gracies or others like them and the regular guys learning for self defence?

Good question CDLEE I'm curious to hear the answer to that question.

[les paul]

Interesting.....

I'll try to make my comments brief:

Iv'e studied Xingyiquan since 1982 (ya I'm getting old!) and I haven't seen to many people who really knew the art. My Sifu Kong shu Jim (passed away in 1992) taught very different from most of the internal arts I've had the pleasure of seeing. His teaching methods were very demanding physically.

I've seen a lot of people who have supplemented their xingyi knowledge with other techniques from a different style. (usually something like Taijiquan)

Most people get exposed to Xingyi through schools that *******izied it (only teaching the five element in it's most basic form) then go on to teach a little Taiji and a little Bagua.

It is vary rare to see xingyiquan taught as a whole in the USA

As far as the interenet goes I only know of only a couple of fully immeresed/trained Xingyi men out there.

Little comments or brief statement if you know the art clues you into someone's knowledge.

I had a brief conversation with Kenneth Fish on Pan Gen over on empty flower. com He knew things that you would only know if you studied xingyi for a long time.

For example, Xingyi is not linear...never has been.....through Pan Gen, the Yin side of the art (the circular side ) is explored. Up untill that point, one has learned only the Yang side of the art.

I once had a conversation with a guy named Filpe Bideo (sic) I'm not sure if that's correct spelling) over some application in Ann shen pao or was it xa shi chui? Anyway, he was either on his way or actually there as far as knowledge/experience is concerned.

There are others, but these are some of the more internet active xingyimen that I have spoken with.


As for the Blacktoaist's comments of pretenders......they are so true....

Rememeber!!!!!!

Xingyiquan lives by one code! When it comes to training, "you must fight it out" when looking at a techniques effectiveness. thier are "NO!!!!!" dead techniques in Xingyi. That is why they are so simple (but complex) to perform.



When in doubt!......fight it out! ....anything else isn't Xingyi training.


The true art not withstanding the various styles within xingyi, with popularity, should start to introduce itself to the public, just as Bagua is doing now.


Les paul

[swmngdragn]

Hi folks.....

My impressions of Hsing-I as a whole art is precisely the same as my take on *any/all* of the Internal Martial Arts. It's the fact that knowledge has been lost over the recent past due to the "secrets" of past masters, and the "misinformation" that's been propagated. What's happened is that civilization has been changed over the last century to the point where fighting is superfluous in the martial arts. The original intentions have been/are lost in todays commercially oriented arts. What counts now is money/commercial success/fame. It's a "chocolate" society worldwide. Immediate gratification.

Previously it was all about survival. Period. What we seem to be left with is uncounted hundreds of "sifu's", "masters", and "grandmasters" who have nothing, *but* forms. The "martial" side of the arts is disregarded wholesale, and even if "fighting" is recognized, the details of the training(s) are/have been forgotten. This generation of Internal Martial Artists is *so* far below/behind the previous generations as to be laughable.

That's not to say that there aren't good teachers available, but that they are *very* few, and far between, and even if they're available to the public they may only have a piece of the puzzle. Even at my, admittedly, low level I can "see" if a supposed "master" has any type of "internal" ability. I've even managed to "touch hands" with several very well known, and found them seriously wanting. Lacking even what I consider the most basic of "internal" mechanics. These are the men we look to for the answers, and they don't even know the questions. Sad state of affairs.

We are in a "visual" age where "what we see must be true" rather than what should be felt. We manage to "fool" ourselves into believing what's "real", rather than just work hard, and realize that any benefits are just the byproduct of *correct* training. Recently I made a visit to a few collegues in the south, and had a chance to see a, relatively, well known teacher from their area. I didn't even have to see him do anything other than walk from his car to the front door of his school to recognize the fact that the man had nothing. He may have been a fine athlete, but was definately *not* an internalist. Even though *that* was what he promoted himself as. Just because a form is "correct" doesn't make the practitioner *correct*.

This is what I see all over, and it lessens what the internal martail arts *should* be. I see video clips of hsing-i, taiji, and bagua from all over the world, and I've yet to see anyone worth my time, other than the man who has trained me from the start in the internal arts. That's why I choose to train privately, and work exclusively on the core of my art. *That* training is what counts. *Not* fifty different forms, and countless hours of "practice" of what "looks" good, but has no real value. Down the road those things *may* have value to me, but for right now, and the foreseeable future, core training, not practice, is what it's all about.

That's what's missing from all of the internal arts for the most part. The diligence, patience, and willingness to put in hours of work for the long term. *Training* instead of "practice". What's seen is "empty hands" instead of full ones from the ima community. As far as teachers/schools who are/have competed recently in tournaments? Let's just say I'm not overly impressed with any of the students, or the instructors, "abilities" as a whole.

[Water Dragon]

It's out there. I can name just as many good internalists in Chicago as I can BJJ or boxing. I don't think it's valid to expect the art to be around every street corner. No other fighting art is.

Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There's not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.

Also, many people feel that if someone is not training exactly as they do, the other group is a sham and a fraud.

Lastly, for some reason, in IMA, there can be only one for some reason. If you don't believe me look at all the posts of people claiming that only they have the truth and every one else is a fraud.

Believe what you want, but it's out there. All you have to do is look around and use yopur common sense.

[Phantom Menace]

It's just hard to find a bonafide Xing Yi teacher.

[circle_walker]

I don't know if this will assist the argument, or be just another voice screaming into the wind. I am presently a beginning Bagua Zhang student. Aside from a breif foray into Tai chi, this is my first internal training. I looked for a long time to find a teacher that I beleived to be competent. Someone who would not be just babbling esosterics, because internals are rare enough to be passed off as mysticism. My teacher has not talked to me about the theories, or principles of Xing-i. To be honest, I had heard of it in passing. Seeing it advertised on miscelaneous school windows. I saw demonstrations of it more recently. I could'nt have cared less. It meant absolutely nothing to me. I was interested in Bagua, nothing else. One day during class my teacher was practicing on his own. THAT was XING-I. I have to learn THAT. Right now I am devoted to my Bagua. i won't dilute my training and half-@$$ learn both at once. Later when I have more of a grasp on my present training, I will take on more. I just know that actions spoke much louder than words in this case. I agree with Water Dragon, the real thing is out there. I admit I am know next to nothing of Xing-i, but I know what I saw was different than what was being passed off as internal elsewhere. What I saw was rooted, powerful, and explosive. Forgive me for talking out of my own admittd ignorance. I just thought that this particular observation had a place here.

[swmngdragn]

>>It's out there. I can name just as many good internalists in Chicago as I can BJJ or boxing. I don't think it's valid to expect the art to be around every street corner. No other fighting art is. <<


I know for a fact that you're sadly mistaken. From this statement alone I know what "level" you're at.

>>Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There's not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.<<

Whoever said that they were? Most of us are poor, and perhaps a few are "o.k." Do you consider yourself "high level"? I don't consider myself anything special, but I *know* that I'm better than you as far as the internals go. If for no other reason than experience, and length of time in training. I certainly don't post on one hundred boards, and expound at length over everything/anything. I spend a vast majority of my free time training, and *not* on the computer in the attempt to better myself. I suggest, highly. that you do the same.

>>Also, many people feel that if someone is not training exactly as they do, the other group is a sham and a fraud.<<

I'm not even looking at training methods. I'm looking at so-called "finished products".

>>Lastly, for some reason, in IMA, there can be only one for some reason. If you don't believe me look at all the posts of people claiming that only they have the truth and every one else is a fraud.<<

Let's just say that anything I've ever claimed to do, I *can*do. No one has *ever* proven me wrong where the ima's are concerned. I get my information from the best. Not only in instruction, but in experience. I have "tested" the theories, and know what my own short comings are. I don't delude myself. I can afford to be an opinionated ass. I've put in my time training, which I continue. I've the "pedigree", which is beyond reproach. I recognized early on in my training with my sifu what the "truth" was. Can you say the same? Have *you* earned that right?

>>Believe what you want, but it's out there. All you have to do is look around and use your common sense.<<

After having been on this Earth approximately twice the amount of time that you have, and having had considerably more experience in most everything that you've encountered. I believe you need to address me with a bit more respect. Until then, everything you have to say is moot. Regardless of the fact that your teacher, and I are on friendly terms. That still does not give you the right to even expound upon my opinions in this manner. Perhaps Joe will read this, and e-mail me privately conveying *his* opinion. Until then, you must drink tea, Larry.

[Water Dragon]

Drake, I can name two internal teachers in Chicago. One being Mr. Choi and one who's name I can give you privately if you'd like. I can also name two BJJ schools and 1 good boxing gym, although there must be 2 or 3 more in the city. They can be found if you look. That was my first point, even if worded rather poorly.

I know for a fact that you're sadly mistaken. From this statement alone I know what "level" you're at.

I know what level I'm at as well. I never claim to be advanced in anything around here. I state my opinions and experiences as honestly as I can. For the record, I feel I'm somewhere in that hazy area that might be considered intermediate but still could be a beginner as well. I find no shame in that.

>>Also, the internet is not the place to be looking. There's not a lot of high level people running around posting everywhere.<<

This line simply means that you don't see Wai Lun Choi, David Lin, Gin Foon Mark, etc. posting advice on the net.

But most importantly: Drake, if I've offended you I apologize. If you think that the post was directed at you because it was posted after yours, that's not true. I have nothing but respect towards your teacher, and have asked after you within my training group. You were spoken well of and in a manner that has gained my respect.

I still wont apologize for the post though as those views are my sincere opinions, which I have the right to post.

[CD Lee]

Posted by swmngdrgn:

. I don't delude myself. I can afford to be an opinionated ass. I've put in my time training, which I continue. I've the "pedigree", which is beyond reproach. I recognized early on in my training with my sifu what the "truth" was. Can you say the same? Have *you* earned that right?

Humility. You are lacking the humility and respect for others that I would have expected to find in someone who is so accomplished at internal arts, after 30 years of training, and of someone who has understood the 'truth'. You may ge great at forms and even fighting, better than all of us, but you lack the refinement of character that it takes to deserve the respect of strangers.

Just on a strictly objective level, how am I supposed to believe you, when you don't believe others such as waterdragon? A forum is a place for public observers to share in a mutual exchange. If you have a personal axe to grind on Larry, then you should deal with him in email. Otherwise, you have provided nothing in the way of names, schools, references, or anything else other than your personal opinion that you are better than most. Like I said, you may actually be, but you have given this forum of listeners no reason to give you credibility. Frankly, you sound like a kid or a very frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty.

[swmngdragn]

>Humility. You are lacking the humility and respect for others that I would have expected to find in someone who is so accomplished at internal arts, after 30 years of training, and of someone who has understood the 'truth'. You may great at forms and even fighting, better than all of us, but you lack the refinement of character that it takes to deserve the respect of strangers.<

Humility = An act of submission. (Taken from Funk @ Wagnells New Comprehensive Dictionary)

I believe that you need to reevaluate your over all comprehension of the English language. As far as your other assertions? Well ..... Lets just say I've never wanted for a lack of confidence. I've been know to acquiesce from time to time, but *never* to submit. Respect is earned in both word, and deed. For those who matter in my life I've *earned* that respect. Also, for your personal note book on my life, I've never claimed to train in the T.C.I.M.A.'s for thirty years. I've trained in a *variety* of arts for that length of time. It's only been for the last eight that I've been exclusive in my attention to the T.C.I.M.A.'s.

>Just on a strictly objective level, how am I supposed to believe you, when you don't believe others such as waterdragon? A forum is a place for public observers to share in a mutual exchange. If you have a personal axe to grind on Larry, then you should deal with him in email. Otherwise, you have provided nothing in the way of names, schools, references, or anything else other than your personal opinion that you are better than most.<

I'd never made any such assertations. If anything, I observed my own "prowess" from a distance. In my own *opinion* I am a bumbling oaf. I cannot fool myself. Other than that? Who are *you* to insert *your* *opinion* of me based on my own *opinion*? For your information the "insult" I imagined was from poor phraseology on Larry's part, and my own rash misinterpretation. Larry, and I have rectified the matter between us. In a private manner. *You*, on the other hand, are better served in training, rather than "running off at the mouth" on the computer searching for answers that are, ultimately, found within said training, and yourself. For your information, a mutual exchange is *not* an indictment of anothers opinion. Appropriately, it's *you* from whom the indictment comes.

>Like I said, you may actually be, but you have given this forum of listeners no reason to give you credibility. Frankly, you sound like a kid or a very frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty.<

I've not asked for your acceptance of my "credibility". As *you've* made *your* opinion of me based on a situation that you weren't invited in to, and as such have made your *opinion* of me based on a misunderstanding, I'll say this much. I make no bones about who I am, and I make myself readily available to those with whom I have created some sort of relationship with. Even across the internet. If you have a "problem" with me, you're more than welcome to come up, and we can ....."discuss" the problem. I'll even cook a fine lunch, or dinner when we're done. I'm more than willing to debate whatever fine points of humility, or the lack thereof that you seem to think I have. However, I beleve you *may* want to reread my original post, and then W.D.'s, and see where I could have made my mistake. From my point of view. As to my being a "frustrated middle aged Walter Mitty"? I *did* enjoy the movie. Very much so.
I *don't*, however, live within my own, rather fanciful, imagination. Unfortunately, I must live in the, present, real world. As must we all. "Frustrated"? Perhaps. More so with those who would rather discuss, and theorize than work. I "sound" like a child? My adult child would argue that point. I certainly do not. I *do* do my best to keep a rather "youthful" perspective. I'm also in better physical condition, as well, due to that "youthful" perspective, and a preponderant desire to protect me, and mine. Especially given our current timeline.
Until you've managed to "walk in my shoes", so to speak, you need to ask yourself the selfsame "questions", in a matter of speaking, that you've posed to me. I think that perhaps you'll find some rather "incriminating" evidence in your own psche. This is the last I'll write on this matter that you've so handily "insinuated" yourself into. Perhaps, at another time, we can discuss the hubris that you've exhibited at the time of this writing. Until then, you must drink tea.