Bruce Lee this,Bruce Lee that.!!

[TenTigers]

Let's not forget that BL's relationship with Yip Man was strained, and he really never learned the entire system, and Yip Man was quite old at the time, and Bruce didn't really train very directly under him, and, and.......so I don't see this as meaning that he met with a superior system, just superior fighters. Oh, and BTW, have you ever seen old pics of Gin Foon Mark? The man was buff to say the least. Sifu Norman Chin is also pretty muscular. no wonder they threw him around like a rag doll.(from what I've heard) I don't think that there is one superior system, just superior fighters. These systems all were developed about the same time, during life and death struggles. If there was a superior style, the others would have gone by the wayside. It would be pretty stupid to continue doing a system, stubbornly clinging to it when a better method is developed. These systems are simply specializations born from each individual founder's preference for specifc techniques and concepts. In other words, "It's all good!"

[fgxpanzerz]

does muscle matter much when it comes to martial arts? I mean, isn't better technique more important than big muscles?

[Rafael]

I think this is a ridiculous topic.... it’s like who can beat who?.king Kong vs godzilla?

Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims.

It is clear the positive contributions Lee has made to martial arts world ...after all you all are still talking about him after so many years after his death right?

I think it is cowardly to talk about a person who cannot defend him or her.

It makes those with the negative statements look insecure and jealous !

Where were all these "mantis " guys when Bruce was alive?

Now they come out of the woodwork with their BS?

Yes when he cannot defend himself !

Bruce Lee respected Gin Mark and preying mantis.... but lets not go overboard with these tall tales wild claims .

RF

[Rafael]

I think this is a ridiculous topic.... it’s like who can beat who? King Kong vs godzilla?

Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims.

It is clear the positive contributions Lee has made to martial arts world ...after all you all are still talking about him after so many years after his death right?

I think it is cowardly to talk about a person who cannot defend him/herself.

It makes those with the negative statements look insacure and jealous !

Where were all these "mantis " guys when Bruce was alive?

Now they come out of the woodwork with their BS?

Yes when he cannot defend himself !

Bruce Lee respected Gin Mark and preying mantis.... but lets not go overboard with these tall tales wild claims .

Could you personaly stand up to Bruce Lee?

If not do not talk and hide behind your masters .Stand on your own 2 feet !

RF

[anerlich]

Post again.

Only because you asked so politely...

Were u in Hong Kong to verify or to denounce his claim? I doubt it.

Well, FWIW, I was in HK in 1982 at a tournament also attended by William Cheung. But I thought this alleged incident happened in NY, so what does being in HK have to do with anything?

My first instructor has been teaching KF since 1969 and was a student of William Cheung in the late 1960's. The family of a friend and former workmate have a non-KF business relationship with William Cheung and know him well. I gained instructor certification from the WWCKFA in 1995 under William Cheung's most senior student at the time, prior to our school severing ties in 1996. I think I have a better perspective on this than you do.

Were *you* in HK to *verify* his claims? I doubt it.

The point is, to accept everything (anything) William Cheung says as gospel, you have to accept his stories about Traditional and Modified WC, and that only he was taught the "true" version of Wing Chun by Yip Man. I can't, therefore I take most of what he claims about history, BL etc. with lots of salt.

That said, CMA is rife with tall tales and I don't think William Cheung is any worse than a lot of others when it comes to exaggeration and over-mystification and dramatisation of events. Just more outspoken.

In his "My life with Wing Chun" (which I assume, as a scholar of these subjects, you have read), and in other writings, William Cheung paints Bruce Lee alternately as a poor little rich kid who Cheung took under his wing, or a hothead with poor judgement who got into a number of dicey situations with gangsters, and only William Cheung's skill and imtelligence were able to save Bruce from himself. All of these stories may be true, but they do sound a little too conveniently self-serving and cannot be corroborated. If they are true, however, then it should come as no surprise that Bruce would have some trouble with a group of skilled Mantis fighters.

There are other stories of how Bruce used to get under Gene LeBell's skin, and Gene would occasionally pick him up and carry him around the room until he calmed down. Joe Lewis is on record as saying that Bruce rarely sparred and that he (Joe) had some reservations at his ability to prevail in real combat, though none about his knowledge or skill as a teacher. Bruce Lee wasn't invincible? Imagine!

I find it ridiculous that anyone gets so worked up about this stuff. But I love a good argument on a ridiculous subject.

does muscle matter much when it comes to martial arts? I mean, isn't better technique more important than big muscles?

Skill had better be more important, or we are wasting our time and might as well all start pumping iron fulltime. The skill of two combatants being equal, though, I'm betting on the stronger guy.

[Rafael]

Hello analich,

I find it ridiculious that someone is so absorbed by redderick and here say .

word to the wise :believe none of what you read half of what you see.

See this is the problem with most forum coutch potatoe MA . tHE TOO BUSY worried about stories instead of training .

HAVE A GREAT DAY !

RF-

[MantisWill]

There was an article in KFQG (I think) recently about how Bruce *did* spend some time with a Mantis teacher. If you're familiar with SPM, you'll see it in some of Bruce's postures, handwork, etc. I also happen to believe this is where he picked up his "inch Power", as that is something SPM practices all the time. But, he could've gotten it anywhere. I remember seeing a chapter in a old book about chinese masters, and it was bout this guy who could drive you to your knees just by "screwing" his hand into your belly.

[yuanfen]

Success hasa thousand fathers... all sorts of people claim to have "taught" BL something or the other.

[Rafael]

Sure there is no doubt Bruce picked up a thing or 2 training with Mark. I bet you Mark got something training with Bruce as well.

Sure evidence is what Bruce did does point to PM. In fact he was quoted as saying behind WC it was the the most effective Gung fu style he believed.

There is no argument about that. The argument is all these guys comming out of the woodwork saying they beat up Bruce and putting him down for there own jealousy and short commings!

The argument is for all the hyperbole tales of how they were going to kill him . As if you just study PM will make you invincible.

I have study some seven star and southen mantis myself . I see its benifits . At the same time I know it is the artist that makes the art go . Not the other way around.

So these mantis guys are saying they all could be Bruce. Gee I wonder why ???


Mabey to prey on weak minded people and make a quick buck ?

I can read between the lines here. It is sick the way people try to make money off a dead man .

RF-

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
Did u guys know that after BL's famous one inch punch demonstration in Madison Square Garden, he get his arse beat by a few southern praying mantis guys since he said he was a southern mantis master. They were supposed to kill him but decided not to since he was a rising star that could provide them with funds.

Hello All,

This story should get your BS meter jumping off of the scale for several reasons.

1) No one has heard of this story. There are other supposed BL fights that have at least surfaced before now. The author of this crap tries in vain to cover himself by talking vaguely about "many Bruce Lee fights no one has heard of". Whatever!

2) If these guys were mad at Bruce for claiming to be a "Mantis Master" then why gang up on him? The only way to disprove such a claim would have been for one of them to beat him in a fair fight. Sorry, but even "Master Mark" or "Yip Man in his prime" would get beaten if faced with a sufficiently large enough group of opponents. How many people are we talking about? 5, 10, 20? Mike Tyson in his prime was the dominant boxer in the world. If a gang of 10 to 20 angry heighweight contenders jumped him a match and managed to get the best of him, what would that prove? Absolutely positively nothing.

3) The "they ganged up on him because they wanted to kill him" explanation is BS also. If that were the case they could have just shot him and been done with it.

4) Considering that Bruce had started making a name for himself when this supposedly happened means that he would have somehow had to account for all of the injuries from being beaten within an inch of his life.

5) Where is the evidence of Bruce Lee ever claiming to be a mantis master in the first place? Master Mark has had much more to say about Bruce's training in Mantis than I've ever been able to find Bruce to say.

6) The story is completely unverifiable. Not a single "mantis practictioner" is mentioned by name. They aren't even identified as "students of Sifu so-and-so". So there's no way that anyone can check up on the story to see if it is true or not.

7) The claim that they kept Bruce alive so that because "he was a rising kung fu star and this would help them make money" is laughable! If there was a profit motive anywhere than why haven't any of these guys stepped forward with this story and cashed in? It's got to at least be worth a magazine exclusive interview.

What is sad is that some people in the MA world are jealous of a dead man because they somehow feel that his success reflects badly on their art. That is silly. I'm glad many Wing Chun practictioners have a much more mature perspective. This thread seemed to grow out of the "Ip Man the movie" thread over someone being disgruntled about the possiblity of Bruce being represented in that movie. Well guess what? Bruce Lee is still Ip Man's most famous student. To not include him at all in a movie about Ip Man's life is as dishonest as it would be to make Bruce Lee a central charecter in a movie about Ip Man's life. Ip Chun clearly holds no ill feelings toward Bruce Lee. In his book he talks of how the so called rift between Bruce Lee and Ip Man was a fantasy and that they even made public apperences together to try to dispell the rumours. He also talked of Bruce coming back to Hong Kong several times to continue training. I see no reason why any other Wing Chun practitioner should hold ill will toward Bruce Lee either.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Dark Knight]

"Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims. "

But lets not make a god out of him. A lot of people want to claim he was more than what he was.

[Rafael]

I Fair enough ,we should let the dead rest in peace ..at the same ttime not make people more .....or less then they really were...

fair enough....but consider this...........



Questions you may want to ask that get to the motive of all this are:

1.Why even mention so and so beat Bruce Lee?

2. What exactly does that have to do with you?

3. How does this help you?

4. Why are people still mentioning Bruce Lee’s name in there associations if what you
Deem is superior?

5.Does rumors of so and so beating Bruce Lee automatically make you better cause so and so is from your style?

I am not pointing out one particular style or artist. But these days I am hearing all of this “Bruce only learned part of the system” stuff.

So imagine if you learned all of it? Would you surpass Lee??? !!! That’s what they want you to think! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So I think it’s time for those people whom Put Bruce down & at the same time try to mention him in their every sentence to sell their product to stand on there own .


Let's discuss his methods( as well as others ) and compare them intelligently.

fair enough ?

RF-

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
"Point is Bruce Lee is dead and people should learn to respect the dead. After all he is not here to deny or to make any statements about these wild claims. "

But lets not make a god out of him. A lot of people want to claim he was more than what he was.

Agreed. But I don't think that pointing out the holes in this story makes Bruce Lee a god. If I had said "Did you know that doing a demonstration some Praying Mantis practictioners tried to jump Bruce Lee and he totally kicked their collective asses?" That would have been just are irresponsible as the first story.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[fgxpanzerz]

jeez. why are u getting in a ****y fit. If u'd like to know the SPM guys' names, I'll tell u. Gin Foon Mark and Normin Chin. Always remember that Bruce didn't do anything for Chinese martial arts. It was the advertising companies that did. This has nothing to do with the yip man movie, which I know nothing about. It's interesting that u mention Ip Chun. He cashed in on his papa's death. I heard another story that Yip man didn't teach Yip chun sh*t about wing chun because yip chun was and is attracted to men. His butt buddy is probably that guy in all his books with him. Believe whatever you want and don't take everything so seriously.

[yuanfen]

Gin Foon Mark is a great martial artist. He knows hung gar as well but SPM is his main art. I have noihing nut respect for him. There are two Chins in NY SPM. I have heard good things about NC. But the Bruce Lee stories are getting garbled on this thread...and somewhat pointless.