Controversial Question(OT

[diego]

Lets take a town somewhere in the south, the mayor is white, and his family and two others that are friends, thier offspring have been in this town circa since it was founded.
5 more familys, run the banks, 3 runs the church, etc...now we all know abit of the souths history of segregating, and the whole fact they stole the land"wich is the key behind my equation".

so its the year two thousand and two; Now the the mayor has a blackman as one of his main advisors, the signs are off the waterfountains, and only the homies ride at the back of the bus no anyway...schools are intermixed in the suburb area, but thier is still the rundown black section wich is 30 miles, originally was the slaves nieghbourhood...its your average ghettoe, drugs and firearms rampant, pooreducation, etc.




now heres my thing.


you have a white man and a blackman, the blackmans greatgreat-great and grandfather slaved for this whitemans greatgreat etc.
this blackman is crazy f'n ignorant can only get to the 18thletter, but knows how to count tens and twentys on the corner.
the whiteman is harvard material. the blackman sells dimes and collects welfare and child support for his three kids at age 19...they both 19.

they both 30, the blackmans doing 3-8 for armedrobberry,
whiteboys, campaign promoter for that mayor, earns 70g, but his family is worth two bill.

Shouldnt they have sent the blackman to harvard with thier son, as they put them in that block, with its school system, and nightmares of future hope or ambition, Now in this case scenario he two would have worked with the mayor, and instead of doing time and his now 6 kids, lil joey age 11 just got shot for breaking into a house with some olderdudes, wanting to get a vcr so they can get some liqour and weed, instead of sniffing glue, to kill the hypertension from sugarwater and generic cheerios; They all live next door to the whiteman, and they play Golf on sundays!.

so in general, thier is many truths in this story relating to america, and i can also understand i mean im white only a little native, not enough to really cliam if i didnt grow up with natives of norelation... I cant feel sad possibly didgusted if my grands were bigotrascists, as im not, However in this scenario, its the whitemans grands fault the blackman aint calling him to bring they kids to see starwars:-)
as whiteboys grands dragged his ancestors from they home, and made them work.

so should the whiteman if were are going to talk about true american virtue" by the way would you describe what that really means, and what historical footnotes manifested this type of thought" should he have to give this man welfare etc, or since he aint rascist its not his fault, but if were are going to talk about am virtue, in his heart and intention its not his fault, reality wise all he owns, and what led to his bieng IS?

What you think?

[diego]

the ends all wierd, this is a reply i sent two a liberal and republican discussing state of affiars, so if your going to reply and it looks like i asked you about your american virtue you dont have to fill in that part

i just cant work out if he should pay and how to make it work!.

[Merryprankster]

I am not responsible for the actions of my ancestors. I am definitely not responsible for the actions, be they good or bad, of any adult person, other than my own.

I can work to try and improve conditions. I can work to try and improve society. I can contribute, in my own way--it may be as simple as being a law abiding citizen who raises decent kids.

I refuse, however, to be held responsible for the choices another adult, not raised by me, has made.

End of story.

[respectmankind]

i should not be praised for ancestors actions, or judged by them. aside from merrypranksters respons, i would add that instead of can try to work to improve, i would say, no matter what social, economic ect.. position you are in, it is your responsability to a) improve on the world(help in progress), b) maintain the world, c)deal with your sacrafice and hardships, no matter how different yours is from anothers. Although there are many, I am too tired and thoughtless at teh moment to type them out because I am an alaskan boy and 70 degrees is killing me.

[diego]

Yes merry, that is what they are ranting about on the forum i first posted this. Please deal with the scenario not the headgames in america.

the whiteman is succsessfull because his ancestors became rich off the blackmans ancestors work!.

so your reply, and i respect your opinions from your posts, has nada todo with this scenario, as what you said merry the whiteman in this story his family created the conditions from the last century wich led to the blackman and everyone else he hangs with to be as they are written...the point behind the story if he had the same choices the whiteman got from his familys money wich was made from the labor of the blackmans family, at this moment of him rotting in his cell, the blacknwhite would be at the 9th hole already.

[Merryprankster]

I'm dealing with the scenario, and I'm dealing with it in the here and now. It has nothing to do with mindgames and EVERYTHING to do with taking personal responsibility for your own actions.

That underpriviledged black man had a choice--he COULD have gotten a legitimate job, worked hard in school and tried to become something, or apprenticed himself to a trade, or joined the Army, but instead sold dime bags on the corner.

Or would you have me believe that his current hypothetical state of affairs was socio-economically inevitable? Sorry, but I tend to believe in choices, and as such, personal responsibility plays a big role in my outlook. I am not blind to the fact that socio-economic status is a contributor to bad choices--but in the end, it's a choice, not a fate, and that absolves the white descendant from responsibility--especially this many generations removed.

Mitigation is one thing. Absolution is another yet again--and trying to place the blame on a third party--long since dead--is unconscionable.

[respectmankind]

i guess i totaly missed the question. i am going to get sleep lol

[Mister Hansome]

I 100% agree with Merry. It's all about choices. Even if my ancestors were slaves and then freed with nothing does that mean they should continue on with nothing? No, make something out of yourself. Look at the vietnamese, the irish, the jewish families who have also faced the same fate. Maybe they weren't slaves, BUT they started out with NOTHING, with discrimination and racism breathing down their necks. They faced the same situation, even though getting their from a different means (blacks were slaves and released with nothing, the jewish had everything stolen and used their last pennies to get to north america...etc). Now why are there still prosporous vietnamese (their population is smaller then the chinese in america but hold the second highest number of asian lawyers in america, losing to the chinese population by a small margin, A LOT of famous doctors also are vietnamese, like surgeons, even though alot of their best professionals died they still had a lot of them left from the war) and also jewish population (good lawyers, also controls a huge chunk of the film industry)? It's because they worked hard, and sometimes people say they got what they have easily, because of an advantage, even though it is sometimes true, is it always true? Even if i was a newly released slave, does that give me an excuse to rob people? No, i should work hard, as hard as i can so that my children's fate will be different, send them to school and such.

There are many well off black families who have worked for their present success. You can't blame someones five generations back for the decisions you have chosen.

[Mister Hansome]

Many exeptions still exist, and that's just my view.

[diego]

This is what i am trying to work out, did he really HAVE A CHOICE?.

as i eluded all the way to his grandfather his family is tied to the whiteguys family, so in 2002 he is thirty, the story started around 89, he is a 70s kid, only the thing is, in his nieghbourhood as a shorty, he wasnt riding his bike and going fishing, his school system is bunk, his grandfather and father are abusive drunks, wich came from the grandfather, after he saw the whitemans great?whatever uncle rape his wife, and besides abuse for punishment is how master taught his pappy, mixed with thier good wholesome christian righteousness, get your elbows on the table your gonna get whipped!.

so this kid every night screams, every morning his moms another blackeye...by the way thier school is ****, dusty books and the teachers read the paper and the students play cards to kill the time" and this is true, check out that kid from the hurricane carter story, and what he had to say about lowincome schooling in ghettoes, then he was saved by the canadians".
so age 11 he sees his older brother who pimps with jewellry flyride and all the nieghbourhood honeys, then he sees his father hit is mom frequent, also his dad lost his job as a gardner for the whitemans cousin, cuz he ****ed his wife...so the blackmans pop his a drunk abusive father and the whole family is on welfare.
one day a fight ensues and the pimpbrother kills the father, and gets life!.

its 1985, crack is rampant his mother is now a alky/crackhead parttime prostitue-welfare recipient, the boy looks at his dad and what a loser he was and how the whiteman played him, as the farmers wife ****ed him to, hm yah i forgot to mention they kicked his ass also for that, wich the boys mom got back 2am that night.

then the kid looks at his bro, who is now a drugkingpin cuz he made out of state connects in prison, and while he is locked up he now runs the streets where this kid lives.

so what is he suppossed to do

go back to school and become a janitor, they say he is in grade 8 but he cant remember showing up more then twice a week since grade3, or does he goto work with his boys for his brother


what would you do

and this is some real ****, i know so many native kids i ran with who are now 20-30, some of them had kids and got it together, but some are so head****ed from past ghosts, like my one boy audi/adrian, him and his mom would just go at it for hours, then twenty minutes later its all hugs and i luv you, next morn you lil ****..screw you mom? like wtf

and this guy he is the nicest, give him some alchohol, i had my lil whiteboy friends all hiding in my baclpocket, like when we going home leave the rez.

its like dudes have complexes they grew up in **** its **** near impossible for them to go work in the real world with its etiquettes?sp, like some of these kids i know they are junkies doing 2-5 years, and im like this is rediculous, they are eligible here in canada anyway, a free house on the rez once thier a adult, free college/university and they get checks every month
i mean if your not a richkid, can you imagine free uni? frig i would go study to be a doctor lawyer and video game designer if thier willing to pay for it, and some of my friends, how/where they were raised, it aint even a thought; like its not in thier vocabulary!.

[diego]

but if you were a released slave pertaining to this story, would it be wrong if you turned around pulled a gun and took even half of the money your master earned off you=i dont think so really

is it wrong to take it from his son, who wasnt alive when you were captive but after his father dies he gets his money, is it wrong if the slave takes that money from the kid instead=maybe-what if the kid is shamed at his father= im not sure, how do you work this out?.

[Merryprankster]

Yes he did have a choice-you laid it out.

He could have been a janitor, rather than a drug pusher. Heck he could have joined the army if he was in reasonable health, but there has to be a committment to changing the life you have in front of you, be it janitor or military or apprentice pipefitter.

The best of all possible worlds? No. Absolutely not. But a far sight better than being a drug pusher. Would it have been an easy choice to make? No. Just like it's not easy for an abused child to not abuse others or the child of an alcoholic not to drink.

But life is not about easy choices, necessarily. Sometimes, the choices suck, and sometimes, the ones with the biggest payoff in the future are the hardest to swallow in the present.

It's harder to make those decisions without proper guidance and a proper role model--I'll admit that. But in the end, nobody forced him at gunpoint to sell dime bags.

[diego]

really what i am saying behind all this is, idealy we all should move on and thats great when you look at north america as a map and freedom loving concept

the reality is if you start breaking north america up town for town, thier is storys like this taking place, wich all rides back to the hindu caste system, meaning certrian individuals are held down by past imperfections with present barriers that are **** next to impossible to move forward, only back.


for instance i could go on a rant about greenpeace
and you could say run for office if you want to make a change, thats all dandy in some towns, Yall know the ecoscientist david suzuki from documentary fame, he was going to run for office, and think what a cool politition he would be for this earth, He got deaththreats and someone conducted a driveby on his house.
and so you get ranting hipsters shouting about greanpeace, and fools telling them to run for mayor so the mob can quite them?

[Merryprankster]

Human society isn't perfect and our history is a checkered past?

Well, wonders never cease!!!

And yet, somehow, we keep inexplicably slogging to a more enlightened future....

[diego]

merry did you celebrate happy christmasses, i did.
dont forget the kids been stoned for who knows how long, the town is owned by familys, many still bigoted however rascist, the father was fired and beaten for sexxing the farmers wife, and he became a alky on welfare...why

is he such a loser like the devil was in him when he was born
or did the farmers immediate family have a huge rep in this bourgie godfearing communitys, possibly the wife was shunned from the town, and the blackmans father couldnt get anymore real work cuz its all owned or is friends with the whitemans family.

so this kid is stoned out of his wits consistent say since he was 6 started with nicotine, glue to reefer and then it got dangerous and the traits from his area, he became more dangerous.

he has friends making in four months what doctors make in a year, and they only 18, hes 15 years old, with a probable grade3 education, getting high is like drinking water, he has never seen one man show him what its like to be shall we say gracefull

his kids belly is full, he had his first age 13-15-18 all from differant mothers, by the time he is locked up at 30 he has 250g stashed for when he gets out, in 2 if they accept his parole so hes syked to get out and with the connections he made in prison hes amped to get out and be an even smarter gangster....-he has real dreams now.

so he is a happy man, his brother runs the prison and the streets, so he basically on vacation.

so now i have turned this blackman into a evil *******, he doesnt care about his kids persae as he never got anylove to know how to give, he just makes sure his girls are happy so his babys are fed.


So, i write two storys, one lack of choices due to bieng of the forbidden caste turns out tragic, in prison, his brother was killed in a gangwar years ago, and when he gets out he becomes hooked on herion and dies a bum, the other his brother became even more succsessfull, and now when this guy gets out he and his soldiers are going to create havoc.

The thing behind all this it didnt have to be, and if you had a good childhood you prolly cant answer this. I had both so im tripping off this subject somewhat, as these sort of topics seem to keep coming up.


basically how im seeing it its like cliche americans act like america was gods plan, and here we are; but its like i dont think the plan was that well thought out, now im ranting
PEACE