Controversial Question(OT

[KC Elbows]

JWT,
I knew if I posted long enough, you and I would agree on something.

Apparently I don't smoke enough of the crack rock, as I read nearly all of it.

The major problem I saw with the piece is the assumption that it is solely the welfare state that guarantees business success in place of merit. Sure, it gives some benefits to specific individuals, but, as I have stated, there are individuals who, by a trick of genetics and birthplace, reap the same benefits with no more merit than the crack mother. THAT was the problem that the welfare state was supposed to solve, and by pointing out that the welfare state creates similar results to the system before it through different methods doesn't exactly equate to things being better before it.

I can grant you that the welfare state sytem could create a mediocre class that is elevated above where their true status should be. However, IF it does create such a class, it is a class that is demographically different than the preexisting mediocre class that is unworthy of their status, and gives the more meritorious minority members a base of morons with money to influence politics in an equal way that the white "ruling class" that is already entrenched in the system uses their own useless white folk with a little money to influence things. Which sounds pretty much like a level playing field to me.

Phil, JWT proposes a solution, individual culpability, and while I don't necessarily agree with him on it, I know he has enough experience that whatever vision he has of it probably has its merits. Those articles merely attack the liberal position and propose no solution except to go back to some bygone era that never really was.

Civil rights and affirmative action didn't come into being out of nothing, they came about because, if nothing was done, things were gonna get real ugly real quick. Things COULD NOT remain unaltered, they were very clearly failing, and the original system could not (and should not have) remained the same just to preserve some ideal that did not suit the reality of modern America.

If someone has any familiarity with any conservative alternative that was posed to the inter-racial problems in the US during the fifties/sixties, it would be very interesting to see them.

[Sharp Phil]

Yes, people are born into different circumstances in life. No, it is not the appropriate role of government to attempt to change this. The use of government coercion for the achievement of egalitarian ends invariably creates more harm than benefit, more injustice than justice.

For further reading on this and related topics, I humbly suggest the Objectivism page I maintain.

[KC Elbows]

"Freedom breeds a spirit of genuine solidarity among people who independently embrace the same values."

No offence, but I think that's just wishful thinking, or Alabama would have been a black man's paradise in the fifties.

I'm not meaning to be a jerk, but I just don't think people get along all that well, and if you want millions of them to behave on the honor system, well, that's fine, just do it somewhere I'm not.

[Sharp Phil]

The conflict is that of the irrational versus the rational. Rational men and women respect one another as sovereign entities and thus do not seek to dominate one another; they do not initiate physical force and they genuinely respect others for the rights they possess as individuals.

Irrational men and women, by contrast, do none of these things; theirs is a war of all against all, divided among pressure groups lobbying for the favors bestowed by coercive and invasive government bureaucracy.

No, irrational men and women will not behave on the “honor system” – but neither must they. For a government that recognizes individual rights is created for the sole purpose of protecting those rights. It protects the “negative conception of freedom” as described in the book review I posted. It preserves from coercive force the individual’s freedom of action. (This contrasts sharply with the expanded “positive” conception of rights as claims to the goods and services of others.)

Governments will always be necessary to protect the rational from the irrational, just as the use of defensive force will always be morally just when rational human beings are forced to resolve conflicts with irrational aggressors. There are only two ways humans can resolve conflict: reason or coercion. Persuasion or force; those are the options. Since you cannot reason with someone who is using physical force against you, you must meet violence with violence. In a free society that is not anarchy, government’s appropriate role is to act as referee and policeman -- but not as the arbiter of outcomes.

[JWTAYLOR]

Civil rights and affirmative action didn't come into being out of nothing, they came about because, if nothing was done, things were gonna get real ugly real quick. Things COULD NOT remain unaltered, they were very clearly failing, and the original system could not (and should not have) remained the same just to preserve some ideal that did not suit the reality of modern America.

Now THAT, is an argument I can sink my teeth into, and I don't mean necessarily disagree with. (God I can't spell for sh!t.)

Anyway, I think what you are trying to say there is that:

A. people act in their own self interests
B. the social condition at the time of say, the 1964 Civil Right Act, was intollerable to the populace


So, the people who recognized that "things were gonna get real ugly real quick" got that it was going to get ugly for THEM, real quick. The political structure (republic) of our country allowed for the populace to impact the social condition of its citizenry without significant bloodshed.

And given that, to paraphrase KC, affirmative action became law because the previous system failing, can we assume that affirmative action is becoming illegal now because the current system is failing? If so, then I would say the time for reparation is over.

JWT

[KC Elbows]

Phil, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it IS the role of government. Not very idealistic for a liberal, I know, but there you have it. I don't think people can be trusted that much.

As for Ayn Rand, my opinion on her is that she could have been a phenomonal writer had her works not been so clouded by her own agenda. I've always felt she would have had far more to contribute to the world as a writer than as a philosopher/objectivist/what have you. The philosophy always seemed to me a little too much a justification for behavior than an unclouded observation on how things are.

[KC Elbows]

Don't get clever with me, John Wayne Taylor!

I like your assessment of the lead in for the whole affirmative action thing. At the same time, I disagree with the assertion that its becoming illegal. Its scaled back, and it will probably grow and shrink with the moods and influence of the republicans and democrats. At some point, I would hope that we reach the point where the various groups will be more equitably represented in government and business. Thus far, the emphasis has very much been on one group that was treated worst of all the "minorities"(actually, I would imagine that the black population is really not a minority as far as numbers).

The plus of this is that, when you're counting highly capable people, and limit your count to one specicfic race, you'll end up with a much smaller number than if you count all of the capable people, irrespective of race. Thus, senate probably wouldn't represent such an across the boards count(nothing against the senate, if you looked at people in my level of management at the company I work for, that holds true as wel0.

However, somewhere in this ramble, I was getting to the part where I agreed, this will only exist as long as the need for it continues. However, I don't think that need vanishes just because Ayn Rand says so.

[Sharp Phil]

Fair enough; Objectivism either resonates with the individual or it does not. No amount of persuasion can change another's heart.

[diego]

When i signed off i realized some mite not have read that clearly, what i meant was due to this child bieng a lost cause, even if he wasted his time and went to school, at most statistically he would end up as a janitor @ the local church up the block.
this was just a story, like a elementary math question for me to better equete all scenarios within the current reality, the main point behind it wich i rewrote on page two, kc built on clearly, and this is a interesting topic thats all, thier was no requests on how do some of you feel about how the whiteman founded this plot, just the harsh reality represented in this one case scenario.

He11 yes he becomes a janitor!!!!
I'm just going off the first 10 or so replies, so forgive me if I miss anything after that. I agree 100% with MP. It is a choice. My great grandparents and grand parents were treated like non-human peices of dirt when they came to this country. The lived in poverty. They were the ones in the ghetto's. They worked ungodly hours for next to no pay. Am I to sue the ancestors of those factory owners? They obviously exploited my poor ancestors causing a few of them to die early deaths. Don't I deserve some of the money that my relatives made for them?

He11 NO!

That's the way the cookie crumbles. Instead of complaining about what is owed to them, they busted their humps to make a better life for their kids. Same can be said for the next generation. Finally, my generation is the first not to start out living in a ghetto. It is off the combined hard work of previous generations that I had all my oppurtunities. I have no sympathy for people "trapped" in the ghetto because they think it's above them to slave as a janitor or as McDonald's manager for crap pay. That's what every single other group in America did to get where they are now! It's a choice plain and simple.

Should I make the best out of my situation and begin my family's ascent up the social ladder?

or should I just decide that I'm so opressed and it's not my fault, so I need to turn to a life of crime?

[Mister Hansome]

That even though our ancestors were exploited during the railroad tracks, for example, were our ancestors forced into this situation? No, they could have just went home, as in many places there were head taxes (for being asian you get an extra tax ), but they chose to stay here. These people gave them work, they chose to work, they could have EASILY just went home or starved. It was a choice, and in a way they owe these managers a bit, for giving them work.

Many asian families are poor, but do they give up? No, they still work for a better future, so that their kids can go to school, so that they can have a better job. People who gave up early are the ones who stayed in the ghetto. Look at the asians, they're the fastest growing population and the ones with the fastest growing wealth also, also their numbers in univeristies and colleges are growing by huge %'s.

You can't blame the employer, they actually gave our parents work atleast, even though they were exploited would they have been better off without work? You tell me, jobless or minimum wage.

For abusing your wife issue and kids being abused, did the empoyer lift the fathers hands up and made the guy slap his child and beat his wife? He got frustrated and did it when he didn't have to.

My cousins came to this country with NOTHING, and i mean NOTHING, but did they came here to live off of the welfare programs? No, they worked for money, money that they saved up while living in a rat infested apartment. Money they used to send their kid into university (which at the time proved to have some racist tendencies, like choosing kids because of race), but now he's a doctor. Can you say he had an advantage? No, his family worked for what they have, to better the families future.

These families didn't work, they didn't try hard enough. The father could have worked harder, the accumulated money could have been used to send his kid into trade school (instead of buying pot, or liquor to get banged up and pee on a police car), or have him become an apprentice for a future job, like welding. A small step, but with the money saved the grand kids can go to college.

That's how the asians did it, it's not that we're superhuman, but it's because we worked hard. The options are there. Some have less others have more, but there are always atleast two options, work hard or slack off.

[Wu Wei]

Im in a rush tonight so I dont know how redundant what im saying may be:

Im a very very "white" individual and I grew up in the same nice small town almost my whole life. But what does that mean for me? Im not gay, im not black and im not female so some say im not at all discriminated against. Yet I see natives who get money when they turn eighteen because of something that happened to their ancestors, I see some girls complain their way to success because it works(I would too; and no this isnt a critique of any entire group).
I look at my neighbours who are (as my keen eyesight tells me) a racial minority, and I see their children growing up with all the things I never had. These kids have richer parents with a bigger house and overall more social dignity than my family ever had. On top of that these kids actually know both their parents. Just because im a straight white male doesnt mean I walk on the backs of dead africans.
I try to treat people the opposite way the conquering europeans did a long time ago and I try to treat people with more respect than they show me, yet wheres my check? Why am I not given the good jobs before someone better than me because of my skin colour? My friend tells me that because of new gay tax benefits in Canada hes claiming me as his lover to get more money back. How is this fair?
People always have made excuses to get what they want. They justified themselves when they used black people as slaves and now the so-called oppressed justify their actions when they play families like mine for our money. I look at rich white people just like blacks and natives do, and I wish I could grow up in those nice houses too.
I look at guys who grew up the same way I did and they get special rights because their "natives". What makes anyone more of a native Canadian than I am? I was born here and I've only lived in this same province my entire life, and yet people think im not native to this place?
Unless you literally grew up in the "hood" and dodged gang turf on the way home after school dont whine about "your people". If you did have this life, however, then i dont care if your black, white or spotted, you deserve a hand by society. But this is only an ideal. People have always been born with their lot and I've learned that the only way my kids are gonna have it better than I did is if I dont complain about what I dont have and use what I do have.

For those who have a worse life than I do(and I know theres many) God bless, and love your enemies.

[Mister Hansome]

Lol, i feel for you man, i feel for you.

I'm asian, asians don't get any special benifits (the japanese reconciliation package doesn't count, as they don't represent all of us), it's all in the work ethic. My parents work their asses off, they don't go to school. They came here with nothing, NOTHING, they didn't have the time to go to school because they had to take care of their kids. Frustration? Plenty, but what happened to the abusing you always hear about? None in my family, it's called discipline and control.

We don't own a mansion, but my family is well over average. They faced discrimination, racism, and sexism, even from other asians.

NOW where's my brother? Is he a janitor? No, he's in university. Now how did a poor family put their first born into university and is planning on putting their other two kids through university? Hard work and sacrifice. My dad worked 16 hour shifts a day for six days a week for ten years until he had enough money to open his own business. That's hard work. He's ready to sell his house to send the last of us to university (literally, seriously, he would). That's sacrifice.

The future is formed by the actions of now, learn from the past, mould your future! Don't waste your time thinking of the past unless you plan on learning from it's mistakes, either then that, mould your fricken future already. Or atleast work towards building your childrens.

Look at the chinese, since they've been here, it took them three generations to have enough money to put their first descendent into university. But did they eventually do it? Yes.

[Ford Prefect]

It doesn't matter how you word it. Reparations are BS. Land Grants to Native Americans are BS. These people need to stop looking for hand outs, go out, and get a job. I'll be ****ed if I'm going to take a tax hit for something that an abusrdly small amount of the population did way before my great-grandparents were alive or had even thought of coming to America to live in squalor in the ghetto's.

If any poor person (be they black, white, yellow, or brown) truly wanted to make a better life for themselves, then they'd go out and get a job. Maybe; just maybe, he can send his kid to school or move to a better town to give his kid more oppurtunities. Of course, welfare much easier than a job.

[KC Elbows]

What about children in poor districts, stuck going to terrible public schools. Don't we hold some responsibility to them?

And aren't some demographics unequally represented in such poorer districts as a carry over from the days of slavery and such?

Are those kids lazy too?

[fa_jing]

Two things: one, self propogating entrenched interests suck for all those who are not a member. If we can push for change to this state of affairs, it would be a righteous thing.

Two: some of you look at things as reparations taking money out of your own pocket. I am against reparations for logistical issues, for the impracticality of determining who is actually the descedant of a slave. But not for taking money out of our pockets. I figure, why not take some of the money that is completely wasted, or goes into politicians and their cronies' pockets, and use that for the reparations.

Let's remember that the current tax system isn't exactly just. So don't make a moral issue out of it. Practical issues are more important here.

-FJ