Controversial Question(OT

[Mister Hansome]

Like i said no one five generations back owe us anything. They owe our ancestors something, but how did it end up to us?

Those crummy schools are still schools, if the kids excel in those schools maybe they can become something, not much, maybe a welder or an aprentice, but the chinese went through the same, it took them about three generations to put their first descendents into university. It takes time, but who are going to give money to the ones who actually worked to have their children out of the rut they go into? Now how fair is that? Be lazy and not try, then maybe later on your children might get money from the government. What about he families that decided to work hard, 16 hours a day generation after generation until they got enough money to make a difference.

When it comes to these reparations who will pay for their hard work? If they have to pay for themselves why can't the others.

[Merryprankster]

Fa_jing--You're RIGHT! A JUST tax system would take a LOT more from the rich than the poor. A FAIR tax system on the other hand, would be a flat rate for everyone.

They are NOT the same thing. People throw around Justice and Fairness as though they were synonyms and they aren't at all.

If a 6 year old and a 24 year old, both commit murder shouldn't we sentence them exactly the same way in exactly the same facilities? Clearly not. It would be FAIR to do so, but it wouldn't be JUST. Big difference.

Finally--if you think there is tremendous government waste, I'm here to disappoint you. "Unnacounted for," dollars for the 1995 budget totalled less than something like .1 percent of total federal spending. I'd have to try and find the numbers again to verify, but I did run them once, many moons ago...

Now if you are discussing waste in the sense of unnecessary programs--that's a different issue altogether

[fa_jing]

Yes MPS, I meant the unnecessary programs, the wasted efforts, even the cost of campagning, which I don't think the american people get fair value for. Your statistic is relavent, but, consider that some of that money, although accounted for, is not correctly accounted for.

-FJ

[Merryprankster]

Ah--now, I'll buy that

No worries, not trying to be a little *****, just trying to clarify

I think the biggest problem is that people don't seem to understand that a great deal of regulations exist to protect the people of the US from those that would abuse the system. What that translates to, is a great deal of public money being spent on oversight. It's not as efficient, but without it, people would scream bloody murder.

Now, as far as government priorities not being proper--well, that's pluralism for you.

[fa_jing]

Merry, it took several hours, but your point finally sunk in regarding fair vs. just. I think the US government does do a good job of being fair - and that is a good basis for a government.
As for justice, we have Supreme court Justices, the word justice is written into many of our laws - but it is almost outside the scope of desireable government action. Really, people should make up their own minds regarding what is just, and the government should limit itself to dealing with what is fair. It is a lot easier to come to a consensus regarding what is fair as opposed to what is just, and consensus goes well with government.
I think JWT was saying something similar. Excellent point.

Justice League is for superheroes. Fairness league, that's the role of government.

Regarding oversight, yes, that's an oversized piece of the government, in my opinion. I think that those people performing the oversight, are in many cases inventing the need for this volume. All agree to report the situation in a certain way, to justify their own positions. You see this all over the private sector too. Over-reporting of problems and over-estimation of the hours it takes to complete a project. In the case of government, there's even less competition to knock things down a few notches. And government employees vote to keep themselves labeled as necessary. It's kind of like a school board that appoints its own members. Goes back to the whole self-perpetuating entrenched interest thing.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that our society is structured to bring about major social reforms, even if they may be just. On the other hand, this gives us stability, which gives us strength. So it's not all a bad thing.

-FJ

[David Jamieson]

As much as you may think the US is a democracy, it is actually a Republic. There are big differences between the two. I don't know how anyone got the idea that "democracy" is the way of the west. Capitalism, replubics of states and benevolent dictatorships are the main powers in the world of the west.

A lot of you guys are tossing around socialism in here and dressing it up as if it is democractic. Yikes, some of the stuff is even Marxist!
Ahhhhhhhh.

In the end, change can only be inflicted upon oneself. But... the whole of what humanity is, is far greater than any one of it's parts.

That's all I'll rant about. Kung Fu practice will help you to be a better person. You will feel charitable and helpful to a greater extent when you understand how uncharitable and helpful the world really is.

peace

[guohuen]

"People get the government they deserve."-Chinese proverb
Thanks for saying what I didn't have the nads to Kung Lek. Anyone familiar with the electoral college? Apparently even our founding fathers thought we needed babysitters.

[JusticeZero]

Someone wanted to bring this back to martial arts.. okay.. lemme rewrite your story here..

Your sifu has two students.

Roy, as a child, had a long illness that left him overweight. Because of his weight problem, he becomes easily winded. It's not easy to lose weight, and Roy hasn't put in the hard work to burn it off. Also because of his childhood, Roy has a problem with schedules. Half the time Roy either comes wandering into class late, or doesn't come to class at all. Still, when he was young his family never taught him about keeping a schedule, and his parents are even worse. Does Roy listen? Well, sometimes, but a lot of the time he's flirting with the girls in class, and sometimes he argues with the sifu about simple points.

Steve, on the other hand, came from a family of athletes and dancers. His parents were quite strict and demanding of Steve. Every class, Steve arrives early and warms up; he never misses a class. When Sifu speaks, Steve listens attentively and works to correct his form. Because of his parents, Steve has a natural talent at duplicating movements he sees. His physical conditioning is superb, and his understanding of the forms is commendable. Still, this springs from long hours as a child spent in rigorous practice of balance and physical fitness, and it's entirely because of the influence of his parents.

Both have been training for the same length of time, and your Sifu must chose whether to advance Steve or Roy to be his new assistant teacher - he can only chose one. Which should he chose?

....


Shouldn't he chose Roy? After all, it's not his fault that his habits are so bad, right???


..See how silly it sounds when I put it that way?

[JusticeZero]

I'd like to make an observation, as well..

Many people pushing this absurd 'reparations' nonsense are fond of crying "America was built on the back of black slaves!"
..Pardon me, but well... Even AFRICA was built on the back of black slaves. Much of Europe was built on the backs of European slaves. If I recall, significant portions of Asia was built on the back of slaves. Pretty much every group of people in the world has, if you go back far enough, been slaves.

Slavery wasn't some heinous and unusual thing that America pioneered. At the time, it was just how things were done. The recognised way to do things. At a later date, the people of the world, thanks to increasing prosperity and change of the underpinnings of their economies, decided that slavery was unacceptable - now slavery is illegal.

Basing arguments on the past existance of slavery is like being infuriated because George Washington didn't use e-mail.