Calling Southern Mantis Historians

[PlumDragon]

To start off, this thread is primarily along the lines of a *historical* perspective of the evolution of southern mantis as a whole. Im not interested in lineage battles of any kind; I simply want to learn more about the history of the style. With that said:

As I have travelled down the Southern Mantis path, Ive come across something that I cant seem to figure out, mostly in reference to the forms:

Sub-styles of southern mantis (specifically for my experience, Jook Lum southern mantis) seem to contain significantly varying material and forms, even between 2 lineages of Jook Lum! My lineage has an intermediate form called Um Hon (sp?) and other forms that dont seem to appear in other lineages of Jook Lum; Likewise, HPY's lineage for example, has forms in his lineage that we dont appear to have in our curriculum. While I once thought that atleast we all could claim Som Bo Gin as a convergening point in our formwork, I've talked with those who say that their LWS Jook Lum lineage only has a *single* form and they dont even call it Som Bo Gin, nor does it look anything like So Bo Gin! Meanwhile, the chow/chu gar guys, who are in a totally different sub-style of Southern Mantis, have a Som Bo Gin that closely resembles ours! But another lineage within our same sub-style doesnt??

There even seems to be discrepancies between basic hands in lineages of substyles as well as between different substyles; these discrepancies seem to also exist with regard to stances and a variety of training methods as well...

Whats going on here?? Why is the name of our main style (Southern Mantis) seem to be the closest similarity between sub-styles, and even between different lineages of the same sub-style? How did all this come about? Why is there no agreed upon standards? Why are forms and training views different between different sub-styles and even between different lineages within the SAME sub-style?

Im very curious to hear about why this beloved style of martial arts has developed like this...I imagine an historical explanation is probably most germane but..whatever the explanation I am quite ready to learn what the gurus on the topic have to say...

Thanks in advance

[PlumDragon]

Nobody...?

[htowndragon]

hellz no man

[PlumDragon]

hellz no man

We talked about this last night. You dont possess the information Im looking for...

But somebody does. Surely someone has spent time in more than 1 lineage of SPM and can speak about the historical evolution of the differences between lineages or sub-styles? Im not asking anybody to divulge any information about their stlye, thats too specific and would miss the point of my question. I want to know the path that the SPM style took through history to allow such huge deviation between lienages and sub-styles...

[Firehawk4]

You might want to try this Southern Mantis forum
http://www.tonglong.co.uk/forum/ You can get permission to post by signing up and having the admistrator send you a password here is a place to contact the administrator of the forum at this website
http://www.tonglong.co.uk/

[X-Warrior]

To start off, this thread is primarily along the lines of a *historical* perspective of the evolution of southern mantis as a whole. Im not interested in lineage battles of any kind; I simply want to learn more about the history of the style. With that said:

As I have travelled down the Southern Mantis path, Ive come across something that I cant seem to figure out, mostly in reference to the forms:

Sub-styles of southern mantis (specifically for my experience, Jook Lum southern mantis) seem to contain significantly varying material and forms, even between 2 lineages of Jook Lum! My lineage has an intermediate form called Um Hon (sp?) and other forms that dont seem to appear in other lineages of Jook Lum; Likewise, HPY's lineage for example, has forms in his lineage that we dont appear to have in our curriculum. While I once thought that atleast we all could claim Som Bo Gin as a convergening point in our formwork, I've talked with those who say that their LWS Jook Lum lineage only has a *single* form and they dont even call it Som Bo Gin, nor does it look anything like So Bo Gin! Meanwhile, the chow/chu gar guys, who are in a totally different sub-style of Southern Mantis, have a Som Bo Gin that closely resembles ours! But another lineage within our same sub-style doesnt??

There even seems to be discrepancies between basic hands in lineages of substyles as well as between different substyles; these discrepancies seem to also exist with regard to stances and a variety of training methods as well...

Whats going on here?? Why is the name of our main style (Southern Mantis) seem to be the closest similarity between sub-styles, and even between different lineages of the same sub-style? How did all this come about? Why is there no agreed upon standards? Why are forms and training views different between different sub-styles and even between different lineages within the SAME sub-style?

Im very curious to hear about why this beloved style of martial arts has developed like this...I imagine an historical explanation is probably most germane but..whatever the explanation I am quite ready to learn what the gurus on the topic have to say...

Thanks in advance

The difference comes from the masters changing forms and techniques continously as they discover new things or they adjust or improve to fit in with their environments. Even if you compare two masters' techniques and forms who learned from the same master, their forms are different. They might have learned from the same master but at different times and their master also changed the style with time so he/she probably passed down a little different form of the same art. Your basics should come from the same root but your style should be slightly different.

Which version is better, you might ask. None of course. The variations are created because different masters at different location might have fought against different styles and they adjusted their own system to better fit in with the others around them. Some masters change their styles because they fight with a wrestler, some because they fought a western fencer. Just look at Wing Chun how they started to pour out 'Wing Chun ground fighting techniques' after the popullarity of MMA events (UFC ... etc.) where ground fighting has been proven to be the most effective. The public's interest shifted to grappling, so others had to adjust. In traditional Wing Chun, there are no ground fighting techniques. They just took the same techniques (with slight modifications) to the ground and tried to fit them into a possible ground combat - and they instantly got more students.

So these adjustments are mostly environmental and experience related and improving upon the basics to fit in. But this is how the different styles in general have evolved (SP Mantis, Choy Lee Fut, Bak Mei ... etc.), none is better than the other just better fit with its environment. Don't get hung up on why one is different than the others thinking this is better than that. Learn all if you can and use each when they work better for you.

-X-

[PlumDragon]

X-Warrior, while I appreciate your reply, it doesnt really answer any part of my question, beyond the obvious dynamic of "change".

Ive accepted that this isnt really a question that will get answered here, or by any single person, but if you do happen to have any detailed information (pieces fo the historical puzzle of you will), please feel free to contact me, either in this thread or privately via PM or email.

[Lam Tong Long]

I've talked with those who say that their LWS Jook Lum lineage only has a *single* form and they dont even call it Som Bo Gin, nor does it look anything like So Bo Gin!

Hi,

It is correct that LWS Jook Lum has a single form. It's name is '13 hand techniques' so you are correct that it is not called 'Som Bo Jin'.

I would beg to differ on the opinion that it doesn't look anything like SBJ. I have compared some techniques (in person) from the very early sections of the '13 hand laws' form with an experienced chow gar practitioner (Nish aka Kismet - student of Paul Whitrod) and we found MANY similarities between the two.

A lot of the movements of SBJ are present in the 13 form. They may be slightly different in performance but most importantly they were done for the exact same reasons.

Hope this helps,

John
LWS Pai
Newcastle.

[X-Warrior]

X-Warrior, while I appreciate your reply, it doesnt really answer any part of my question, beyond the obvious dynamic of "change".

Ive accepted that this isnt really a question that will get answered here, or by any single person, but if you do happen to have any detailed information (pieces fo the historical puzzle of you will), please feel free to contact me, either in this thread or privately via PM or email.

PlumDragon, I don't see how my explanation doesn't shed light to your question? You're looking for historical data but don't forget history is happening even today, it's just going to be history in the future.

Anyway, just go to two different schools in the Lam's linage of Jook Lum - such as Henry Poo Yee or Jack Man Louis - and see the different forms, differences in punches and foot works and even in concepts. Why are there these differences even though they learned from the same teacher? Just like I said it before, because the masters change these according to what they find more effective. Some of the schools exist today even have different forms because the masters added to the curriculums and also modified some of the forms they have learned. Therefore not only by observing different schools you will find differences but observing the same exact school through time you will see differences.

Even in Lam Sifu's school the forms were taught differently. The original forms were single man forms but later transfered to two men forms. Today in some of Lam Sifu's students' schools they emphesize the traiditional single man forms, some prefer the two men forms as more effective and their cirriculum do not even include the single man versions - which are different. I personally have seen confustions betweed senior and beginner students in one school for they were taught different versions of the same form. The master's explanation was that he perfected the form and he now teaches the new versions.

If you ignore these facts then you're not looking at the big picture and that is why you do not understand what is going on.

-X-

[hellhound]

I took JL SPM until my health got the better of me and all I could really say is I was told JL SPM has 3 forms and was meant to be mastered in 3 years since the rebels did not have much time to train people. I agree though, it does get a bit confusing.

[X-Warrior]

I took JL SPM until my health got the better of me and all I could really say is I was told JL SPM has 3 forms and was meant to be mastered in 3 years since the rebels did not have much time to train people. I agree though, it does get a bit confusing.

And that is exactly what I am saying. Today - again depending on whom you are learning from - JL has many different forms because many of the instructors 'filled in the gaps' between the beginner, intermediate and advance level forms with others. This makes students understand and prepare for the higher forms better as they advance.

Likewise with the techniques. Even going from teacher to teacher - who originally learned form the same person - their hand and foot work, sometimes even the body postures differ. JL is a very unsructured style and leaves a lot of room for variations. This is hard for many traditional martial artists to understand, for example a karate practitioner who has to perform the same exact forms as his/her student brother does at the other side of the planet.

-X-

[Lam Tong Long]

The ultimate answer to the question at the start of the thread is a simple fact of natural science:

Phenotype = Genotype + Environment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

That is the top and bottom of it.

Regards,

Jay