the concept of covering

[churn-ging]

How many of you here practice the concept of covering?

I was talking to another wing chun person the other day and this topic came up. He said that he never learned or heard of this concept before. So I was just wondering how many people here have heard of and practice this concept?

[yuanfen]

What exactly do you mean by covering? The details are important to the understanding- because there can be equivalencies without it
being the same. If by covering you mean the kwan aso illustrations given before- i dont do it that way. But if you define the concept we can talk some more.

[aelward]

As Joy has written, "covering" could mean a lot of different things. Here's how I see it, based on a lesson from SiFu Duncan Leung:

Covering is the idea of using hand motions and body positions to seal off your open gates with relation to an opponent. Before forming a bridge, your visual reflexes may not be fast enough to stop an attack; therefore, you can position yourself in a way to limit his choices, and move your hands to intercept whatever comes in. So instead of using a motion that covers against either attack "A", "B", or "C", you will choose a motion that could potentionally deal with all of the attacks.

For example, if facing against a boxer in a left lead, you can reposition yourself to his left and enter with a right punch over his lead hand while using an wu sao to cover your own left gates against uppercuts, crosses or long hooks.

Or, against a kickboxer in a left lead, you could enter to his right while using a gang sao motion to cover all areas between your waist and head. Maybe one of your hands will make contact with his arms or legs, and you can use contact reflexes; or, if you don't make contact, your gang sao hands will extend into attacks.

Do I use this idea of covering in my training? Yes.

[Sabu]

What is tan sau, lap sau, pak sau, jut sau, bong sau, etc?

[yuanfen]

Covering is the idea of using hand motions and body positions to seal off your open gates with relation to an opponent.
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Too "general" and too big a motion for me.

[stuartm]

This is open to some interpretation. Covering in some ways can mean prevention. When most students start learning the most common mistake is dropping their Wu Sau or completely forgetting about it! Thus, how can you cover/ prevent / protect without your wu sau. IMHO, this is the most important hand in WC, so I always stress this when i teach

The high gaun sau is also very important in covering against techniques. One problem is people prforming the high gaun incorrectly - many schools use it coming forward so it becomes little more than a jum sau. Gaun sau should sweep across the body in a rolling / deflecting motion. Look at the Bil Jee form and the double gaun sau section. Also on the dummy on the first 2 sections, after you tan and dai jeung, you step with biu ma and perform the double GS - the high gaun should roll across the dummy arm. This move is very effective against close attacks, for examlple if somebody performs huen sau and strike. you can deflect across your body and use the same hand to go straight into fark sau or biu sao. Go to my website -

http://mysite.freeserve.com/swanseawingchun

and click on the 'Training Info' section, and you will see a picture of my Sifu, Samuel Kwok, performing Double Gaun Sau on the mook - if you look at the position of his right arm you may get a better idea of what i mean by the sweeping motion.

Many of the covering techniques are in BJ, like Muns sau and fark sau, kwai jarn etc. I have seen other ways of covering. For example, Wong Shun Leung used to use kwun sau against gaints rounded attacks, especially against kicks - not that the kwun sau was meant to defend against a kick, but if the attacker feinted, and came in with a hook then there would be some protection. Kwun sau is also useful if somebody tries to trap you in chi sau, and can be used on both gates.

Just my opinion though !

Best wishes, Stu

[churn-ging]

aelward described what I mean by "covering" pretty well.

But to elaborate a little more, what I mean is that when you attack, no matter what kind of attack you are doing, you will always be open somewhere. So when I say cover, I mean that you cover your open gates because those are the places that your opponent can attack you. Also, before you have created a bridge,you usually don't know where your opponent is going to attack. So instead of trying to see what kind of attack is coming at you, you would instead cover a wide area to make sure that you are protected.

For example, when you throw a straight punch with your right hand and your opponent has moved off to your blind side, he will most likely attack either your ribs or your head because those are the exposed areas. So you would then turn to the right and do a scissors gaun sao to cover up the area from your waist up to your head because you don't know where he is going to attack. Then you can use your contact reflexes to attack.

I hope this has cleared at least some things up for you so that we can begin to discussing things.

[vingtsunstudent]

churn-ging
'For example, when you throw a straight punch with your right hand and your opponent has moved off to your blind side, he will most likely attack either your ribs or your head because those are the exposed areas. So you would then turn to the right and do a scissors gaun sao to cover up the area from your waist up to your head because you don't know where he is going to attack. Then you can use your contact reflexes to attack.'
if you use your right hand your left should be following it that closely that you don't need to block or are you leaving your right hand out for an etended period(like more than a milli-second is extended)
he shouldn't be able to move his body quicker than you your hands & the fact that your hands are on centre should be enough to cover you seeing as though he will be taking an even longer route around the outside.
the idea of an attack & then having to block to cover because you THINK he is going to attack a vunerable piont doesn't seem to fit ving tsun principles.
it seems to me that there are wasted movements being performed, ie a movement JUST IN CASE.
there is a lot to do with facing & stepping training needed to be done if you feel a need to cover in that way.
vts

[S.Teebas]

Protecting your self is of utmost importance. But I disagree with moving to a position that i 'Hope' will 'cover me...or doing somthing that has worked in the past. Every situation is different.
If you have knowledge of your body, you will know what you will need. (you'll know Exaclty where you are...every limb)

"If you strike them when half has advanced, this is advantageous. " - sun tzu

Doesnt this follow the WC saying of 'Move second arrive first?'

[mthandz]

vts I admire your sifu barry Lee humble and open mind aproach to gungfu. Please consider this offering even thoug I dont neccesarely agree with your analysis

Supose I had to cover distance by moving in with my horse to punch (high) with my right hand, the defender culd move just enough to my blind side to evade and leve me at a facing and positional disadvantage. Given this disadvantage, I wouldnt have time to THINK about what is comming. Instead I instinctively feel threatened in certain portions of my body and I would endevor to preemtively cover up with the appropriate movements as aelward sihing offered.

vts said:
"the idea of an attack & then having to block to cover because you THINK he is going to attack a vunerable piont doesn't seem to fit ving tsun principles. it seems to me that there are wasted movements being performed, ie a movement JUST IN CASE."

Dont you want to hit the other oerson without getting hit yourself? If it means being a little cautious - why not!?! Fighting is not a sport. Attac when certain - play caution otherwise.

vts said:
"there is a lot to do with facing & stepping training needed to be done if you feel a need to cover in that way."

Oh yes, . good point.

mthandz

[mthandz]

S Teebas, I didnt undestand what you wriote.

"If you have knowledge of your body, you will know what you will need. (you'll know Exaclty where you are...every limb)"

I'm more worried about wehre that punk could posibley hit me. What if I need to defend (cover up) against an attack he lunched against me? Isn't it better to cover up those vulnerable openings? justa thoughts

mthandz

[yuanfen]

Differences in lingo perhaps. FWIW- I dont understand the
explanations of "covering" given. Sounds as though that there are
additional unnecessary "defensive" steps involved which is based on guesswork. If one has learned to protect the center line it
should happen reflexively. Sometimes attack is the best defense.
Not putting anyone down- really trying to understand the logic of covering.If I understood VTS's post there was much there that i agreed with.

[Wingman]

IMHO, if you occupy/control the centerline, you are pretty much "covered" defensively. Just like in chess, if your chess pieces occupy the center, then you have control over large areas of the chessboard.

Also, before you have created a bridge,you usually don't know where your opponent is going to attack. So instead of trying to see what kind of attack is coming at you, you would instead cover a wide area to make sure that you are protected.

If you cover your upper gate, you will weaken
your lower gate. If you strenthen your lower gate, you will weaken your upper gate. Should you strengthen your left, you will weaken your right. Should you strengthen your right, you will weaken your left. If you cover everywhere, you will be weak everywhere.

Let's say you have 10 positions to defend and you have 10 soldiers. If you disperse your soldiers (one soldier per defensive position), you are weak in all 10 defensive positions. But if you concentrate all 10 in one position, then you are weak in the other 9 positions.

So where where would you defend? Defend the centerline. The centerline being accessable from all 10 positions. From the centerline, you can defend all areas.

[aelward]

Joy writes:
> Sounds as though that there are additional
> unnecessary "defensive" steps involved which is based on
> guesswork.

Quite the contrary.

Covering can be offensive as much as it defensive in that you can launch an attack that still covers your gates. For example, the "excluding" punch over someone's left jab is an attack, and also covers most possible attacks from his left hand.

Covering also eliminates guesswork, which is the entire point. Guessing is too risky, as is relying on visual reflexes. It means respecting your opponent and the unknowns he presents. You are decreasing your chance of getting hit while you enter into contact range. Afterall, hitting is easy. Not getting hit is the hard part.

> If one has learned to protect the center line it
> should happen reflexively.

If you constantly drill the idea of covering, whether you are attacking or defending, it will become reflexive.

[S.Teebas]

S Teebas, I didnt undestand what you wriote.

If you cant control youself, how can you expect to control anyone else?

Control is power when you think about it.