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Thread: Boxing an Internal art--an intellectual exercise

  1. #1
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    Boxing an Internal art--an intellectual exercise

    Shadowdragon posted the following on a different thread:


    Internal vs. External
    Internal External
    Blending with an attack Stopping an attack
    Yielding Struggling
    Power comes from within Power comes from outside
    Relaxed Tense
    Fluid Defined
    Slow forms Fast kata
    Finesse Power
    Indirect Direct
    Circular Linear
    Accepting what is Fighting against it
    Acknowledging the
    limitations of the self Denying any vulnerabilities
    Winning without
    fighting is best Destroying your opponent

    Before anybody gets their panties in a wad, note the complete title of the thread--it's an intellectual exercise, not a threatening challenge to internal artists or boxers

    Now, I realize the above is not necessarily a comprehensive breakdown, but it seems to me that based on those qualities, boxing shares far more in common with "internal," vs. "external."

    Let's examine the first issue--blending with an attack. In boxing, active hard blocking does not play a prominent role. Passive blocking does in the sense that you'll take it on your forearms instead of your face if you have to, but ideally, you'd rather redirect with a parry or slip it or a combination of the two. Some people DO block--but rarely will you see it considered "good" to throw a hard block out there.

    Yeilding--Boxers roll with the punches. If they get hit they might use that momentum as the first part of a big slip to avoid the rest of an incoming flurry. They might also use that momentum to get their whole body moving, taking the sting out of the shot, and setting up for a counter of some kind.

    Power comes from within- Nobody has yet provided me with a reasonable explanation of this. Does this mean that power is channeled through your center? If so, then Boxing accomplishes this. There is no punch in boxing that does not derive the great bulk of its power through proper structure and torso movement. Arm punching is discouraged and also, next to useless

    Relaxed--a tight boxer is a bad boxer. Next.

    Fluid-- Boxers are always moving, but rarely straight forward or back. Punches must flow from one into the next. Movement must flow from the punches and vice versa. If you aren't fluid and relaxed you get hit and can't hit back. Footwork is dynamic, well balanced, and almost constant. Bouncy is bad.

    Slow Forms--While boxing does not have forms as such, shadow boxing at slow speeds is often encouraged, as is slow repetition on a bag to ingrain certain body movements--speed can be added, but NEVER at the cost of fluidity.

    Finesse--Accuracy and counterpunching, coupled with movement, make a true "boxer." Mike Tyson, in his early years was a fantastic "boxer." He moved in and out easily, slipped most shots, and had uncanny accuracy with hands that happenned to be made out of sledgehammers. Ali was another very good "boxer," when he wanted to be. Watch Roy Jones Jr. sometime. Sure, he's got power, but he finesses his way into setting up that power.

    Indirect- Boxers are ALWAYS taking angles--boxers are ALWAYS trying to draw the other guy out of stance and unbalance the opponent to take advantage with an unexpected attack from an angle that the opponent has a hard time countering in time, rather than battering through defenses to reach the body.

    Circular-- Boxers circle to facilitate indirect attacks. Even if the boxer is moving in or out in a relatively straight line, they will be slipping in a circular manner as they step, to set up angles and avoid getting hit.

    Acknowledging the limitations of the self--I've never met a boxer that really LOVED to just weather a storm of punches. Slipping, weaving, elusive footwork, parrying, etc. All are ways in which it is acknowledged that you, as a boxer, are vulnerable and human and have limits. "Take the pain," isn't very popular. It's nice if you can, but boxers would rather work on how NOT to take the pain, while understanding that they WILL sometimes get hit. Practice is to improve your skill, not to make you into some uninjurable superhuman.

    Winning without fighting--well, you got me here-- It's a duel, so you HAVE to fight. But that's the nature of sportive combat--I don't see people who do San Shou with a Tai Chi background just running away the whole time. So, if we look at it from "self-defense," perspective, then boxing coaches almost always tell you to run, rather than use your skills.

    Thoughts?
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  2. #2
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    First of all before anyone begins the internal vs external argument I'd like to point out that no kung fu style is too internal or external. They have both concepts but the thing is that they tend lean towards another more.

    Well as for boxing being internal..if you can box slowly then it might make it internal.j/k
    Last edited by NorthernMantis; 05-28-2002 at 01:11 PM.
    killer kung fu commando streetfighter who has used his devastating fighting system to defeat hordes of attackers in countless combat situations

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    Re: Boxing an Internal art--an intellectual exercise

    Originally posted by Merryprankster


    Thoughts?
    Yeah, you think too much.
    I have no idea what WD is talking about.--Royal Dragon

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    Now now, Water--don't misinterpret lots of free time as thinking too much there, grumpybutt

    Did somebody steal your lunch?
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  5. #5
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    Having been hit by both boxers and "internal artists" I can tell you for sure boxing is not internal. Boxers punches push through and give you some small relief by knocking you away. Internal punches don't push the body at all and are far more penetrating.

    I really don't know how to explain what the difference is other than (to me) it is a lot harder to take an internal strike. I would just recommend trying the two yourself. I wasn't a believer personally until I felt it- just don't do what I did and let the boxer hit you repeatedly in an attempt to generate the same type of power.

    As a side note is there really any art that urges it players to be tense?

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    Thumbs up

    Of course MPS. Just 'cause it ain't called "internal" means nothing.

    "Internal" is a bunch of letters arranged to make a "word". That word however has been twisted, sinuously morphing into something else.

    I think of it as music. Take the "Fifth Chord". I know it as a fifth chord as there is no third. Hence it is neither major or minor. It is used in many styles if music, originally in Jazz.

    Most people know a 5th chord [or a type of one] as a "Power Chord" present in metal.

    Same thing different name.

    Like you once said MPS "We're all learning the same thing". I agree.

    See my signature



    Winning without fighting
    [Read in Mr.Miyagi style hushed tone]

    The day you realise that whether you "win" in the ring or not, you have "won" by merely turning up, by putting in 110% and bettering yourself, then you have understood the above phrase.



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    -Bible Truths.

  7. #7
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    DS--here's another name for it--the open fifth

    BeiKongHui--I think there are some people here who've done a bit of Kung Fu and boxing that would disagree with what you've said, although I do respect your opinion. A good punch in boxing has a great deal of "penetrating power," which you can feel when you do it right on the heavy bag. It's just DIFFERENT. Instead of pushing the bag around, in lands on it with this beautiful crushing thud and the bag stays put. Lovely.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  8. #8
    Boxing will truly become internal when the boxers replace sparring and actual matches with shadow boxing and deep thoughts about what it would be like to be in a fight. Oh yeah, they have to make excuses for being out of shape like, "my gut is no reflection on my internal power, and weight training slows you down, yada yada yada..."

  9. #9
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    I think this internal-external thing has gone way too far. I think both rely on alot of the same thing. It seems to me that internal is just an expression of greater skill in an art then anything else. For instance BeiKongHui states that aninternal art seems to penetrate you without moving you, while MP has often said that that is a sign of good skill in boxing, when you can hit the bag on it doesnt move or rock.
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  10. #10
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    Red--Hey, it's just an intellectual exercise I tend to agree with your statement, however.
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

  11. #11
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    I have a question. When I hit the bag, it's not a dead stop but the swing is only about 1 inch or so. Can anyone tell me approximately how hard I'm hitting from this? I get a slight dent but no folding yet. (Well, I can fold it with an elbow but who can't? LOL)
    I have no idea what WD is talking about.--Royal Dragon

  12. #12
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    This is the best thread for this:

    internal vs external is bs.

    Very thoughtful and informative thread merry, but: you mention "boxing" as sportative combat - dont you think this imposes limits on how "boxing" is applied in a non-sportative context?

    Of course thats up to the 'stylist' not the 'style' and is subject to the environment, situation, etc etc at the time (of the fight/duel).

    I understand that your particular focus is in the sportative combat arena (no pun ) but do you believe that the limitations imposed by training with a sportative combat mindset/environment/training methods will have "bad" consequences when it comes to non-sportative combat?

    I agree that the techniques should not change either way, and that boxing has a very 'hardcore' and 'realistic' training approach. Just wondering, 'specially since I said internal vs external is a joke.

    strike!

  13. #13
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    Well, it must be nice to have all the answers about everything. maybe one day I can be as knowledgeable as you.

  14. #14
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    MP - sorry if it seemed I was trying to kill the thread, didnt mean it to sound that way. I just feel that internal vs external can sometimes be a matter of what your beliefs are. You have made a lot of comments that make a lot of sense about the martial arts from a very practical very 'western' point of view and I can respect that. My beliefs often time run somewhere in between, but on this many of the comments you have made on boxing make a lot of sense towards arguing that thin line between "internal" and "external".
    I think that people often attack sportive type arts for thier 'non-realistic' applications. what I have come to realize, with your help as well as apoweyn and a few others is that, they are sportive type things and that does not make them any less then any other combative art, just a different side of uh, er, something really multisided!
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  15. #15
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    Yenhoi--I phrased it that way because when you learn to box at a boxing gym, you learn within the context of sport. Does that make sense? Now, hand boxing tools to a person more interested in self defense and you'll probably get some adjustments made.

    Do I think they will have bad consequences? Yes and no. I believe the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. That's almost a completely different thread.

    Water--it depends on the weight of the bag, I would think. But I'm no expert

    Paul--I don't have all the answers. I made a case for boxing being an internal art that may or may not be true. If you have some other ideas share them--but don't be such a little punk
    "In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."

    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell

    "Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli

    "A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli

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