Bouncing while stretching

[Brian_CA]

Hi Guys,

Perhaps I can add clear up some confusion regarding the "butterfly stretching". Before I answer let me give my qualifications on the subject.

I am a professional Yoga instructor that works in the fitness industry. I work with pro level atheltes and many people with injuries on a regular basis.

The stretch you guys are describing can be a good one, when done correctly. Never bounce stretch. It tears up your body and leaves you prone to injury.

The "butterfly" does not damage connective tissue.(unless done in a bounce stretch manner) It stretched deep hip flexors, knees, lower abs and relaxes all the internal organs in the abdomen.

Word of caution, people with knees issues or herniations should not do this exercise until those restritions are healed.

In Hatha Yoga this stretch (called the gentle pose) is an intermediate posture. Takes years to reach it. Most people also try to do before they are properly warmed up. If you do attempt, go slow and most importantly breath.

Hope this helps,

Brian
San Francisco, CA

[IronFist]

There are some Yoga positions (sorry, forgot the names and I loaned the book they are listed in to my friend) that are not good for you to practice. Um, basically any stretch that is not stretching the muscles is bad. So in other words, trying to stretch out lengthen the tendons or anything else is not going to benefit you at all.

But I guess this doesn't help much without the names of the Yoga positions. If I ever get my book back I'll let you know

IronFist

[Brian_CA]

Agreeabley, when a person's body is not prepared for some positions then stretching (the overstretching of the tendons and ligments you mention) can be bad. Not overdoing it during workout is true in any form of exercise. However, all Hatha yoga postions given the proper training will benfit you.

If one does them incorrectly by not listening to one's body and hurt yourself, does the fault lay with Yoga or oneself?

Tendons and ligments need stretching too. All stretching exercises to some degree stretch not only muscles but tendons and ligaments also. When stretching correctly, you can avoid straining those critical pieces of anatomy. The key is to stretch not strain.

The book you mention ironfist, will more than then likey talk about which postures to avoid for certain ailments. Pregnant women for example must modify certain postures and eliminate others. People with shoulder issues should avoid excessive upper body work for awhile.

I would love to hear which book it is. If it is Bikram's book, try to find an old red cover one. The examples of yoga are better. Try reading Hatha Yoga by swami ramnachaka (unsure of spelling). It is a little blue book and it one of the best written on Hatha Yoga.


Brian
San Francisco, CA

[IronFist]

Actually, I can tell you it's "Relax into Stretch" by Pavel. I know some other people here have it so maybe they can quote it for me.

I don't think you're supposed to stretch tendons and ligaments, but I can't think of the reason off the top of my head which makes me think I might be wrong or have confused something.

So, when I get the book back from my friend, I will let you know

IronFist

[wooha]

I've got Relax into Stretch, but I've lent it to a friend and not seen it for weeks too.

Cody.
Obviously forcing the stretch is going to make it worse, but I think the main problem is that the focus of the stretch isn't in the muscle. Even if you're not forcing it, there's not much benefit in doing it. There are far more safe, effective stretches you could be doing instead.

Connective tissue isn't meant to be elastic, it's function is simply to connect the muscle to the bones. The most effective way to increase flexibility is by retraining your stretch reflex through isometric type stretches. Stretching connective tissue is a waste of time.

Plus, when injured, connective tissue take a lot longer to heal than muscle does.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i heard that bending over to touch your toes is bad on the knees as well. i have nothin to back that up, just somethin i read in a magazine somewhere. supposed to be bad on the tendons.

[-Sai-]

very interesting.

Now, if the butterfly stretch is the worst, has anyone here had any problems with doing it? Any injuries etc... and what about yoga, I see people who practice yoga in this position a lot.

Anyway, another question, since doing the butterfly is bad for the tissue/tendons, is this the same as the splits? I'm not sure, but when doing splits the hurting is from that AREA also.

thanks

[wall]

Different magazines/schools/experts/pseudo experts/doctors who can't touch their toes/etc, all have theories on stretching, and all will tell you that this stretch or that stretch is bad for _____ (insert here joint/tendon/ligament/etc).
Look beyond all that, and across all stretching-related activities from MAs to gymnastics to ballet to yoga, and the fundamental principles are the same:

- any stretch, if done to the 'pain' point or with excessive bouncing, it's damaging to the nearest joint/tendon/ligament, as well as tearing the muscle.

- any stretch, if done to the 'slight discomfort' point, with appropriate breathing and perhaps gentle pulsing motion, held for 20 seconds at least, will increase the flexibility of the affected bodypart.

- flexibility takes a long time of appropriate regular stretching to gain, and a short time of no stretching to lose.

- like in strenght there are a few lifts which, when done appropriately, pretty much cover all your strenght needs (squat/bench/chin/dl/dip/curl), so in stretching there are the basic 8-10 stretches which we all know which when done properly and regularly will take care of all your stretching needs.

- another analogy with strenght training: machines are useless compared to free weights. Same for stretching machines vs free body stretches.

- if you start young (under 15, under 10 ideal) and stretch appropriately and regularly, you will achieve full range of motion (splits ect), and then you'll just work at maintaining it. If you start over 18, particoularly male, it is unlikely (but not impossible) that you ever will, so try to achieve a realistic goal such as total control over a specific range of motion.

- static flexibility and dynamic flexibility are different things and whilst you need the first to have the second DO NOT neglect the second. No use if you can do the splits slowly with the ground pushing against you, but you tear every muscle in your leg when you try to do a split kick at full speed.

- always warm up well before you stretch to full range, and as you get older you will need more and more warm up. When I was 15 I could do all splits completely cold. I turned 30 last weekend......I need a good 10 minutes of warm up and limbering up before I can do the splits at all now, and over 30 minutes before I can go all out (eg splits landings from kicks - modern wushu stuff). However stretching is at its most beneficial when you get old, as the body's range of motion decreases naturally, but you are starting from such a higher point than the average population.

- don't become overflexible. If you can comfortably do all splits then you have a full range of motion in your lower body, for MA. To go beyond splits and the like can cause eccessive looseness in the joints and make them rather weak and prone to anything from inflammation to dislocation to really nasty stuff (hip replacement surgery at 50 anyone?).

Have to run, hope I've covered everything and haven't gone too off topic.

Happy stretching,

wall

[respectred]

do bouncing in static stretches count as dynamic, ballistic, or just the regular ol' static stretching?

like, for example, when you do a front stretch on a pole at like waist height, if you bounce, could that be called dynamic, instead of reaching for your toes and stretching for whatever amount of time? i know bouncing Hard isn't good, but since we do line drills w/ dynamic stretch kicks at the beginning of class, i'd rather not do a static stretch on the pole, considering everybody says that you should do dynamic stretching, and NOT static stretching, before doing dynamic kicks....so what i'm wondering is if slightly bouncing while doing that stretch/other stretches is 1) considered dynamic movement, 2) good before you start the "dyanmic stretch kick" type of line-drills, which we start class with? and 3) if it IS considered dynamic stretching (bouncing), then should you hold your foot while bouncing or do it w/o holding anything?

-matt

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by IronFist

I don't think you're supposed to stretch tendons and ligaments, but I can't think of the reason off the top of my head which makes me think I might be wrong or have confused something.

You're correct. Stretching tendons or ligaments too far causes permanent stretch (plastic deformation) and and results in loss of elasticity. Gentle stretch helps injured ligaments and tendons heal proprely by getting the fibers to line up in the right direction.