Wing Chun + what?

[dezhen2001]

Hi straightblast: When i trained Muay Thai before meeting my Sifu that was one of my favourite techniques! It's a very fast and powerful movement and really takes the persons balance.

Actually now i am training with my Sifu, i really wish i hadn't trained in anything before I've only been training around 18 months and am still trying to 'unlearn' everything i have done before, so i can use the wing chun principles clearly. I'm starting to get there, but i guess theres no rush...

I would say that mixing striking arts can be very troublesome. For me before, i did Karate, Boxing/MT and Shorinji Kempo, and actually didn't find much trouble swapping between the 2. But WC principles of punching are very different (to me anyway), so i have found some troubles there.
With grappling i'm not so sure. I did Aikido before also (for 5 years), and the footwork and principles are again very different. Actually i was mugged recently, and the Aikido training managed to protect me from harm which is great
Of course, no 2 people are the same, so you may have no problem. Just relaying my own thoughts and experiences...

My advice would be to stick with Wing Chun and see the richness that it has to offer. If you have any questions and problems, i'm sure the best thing to do is ask a Sihing or your Sifu

good luck with whatever you choose,
david

[12345]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
[B]let me restate what I tried to say earlier. Someone told me a story once by a guy. "


Don't all fairytales start this way?

[anerlich]

Don't all fairytales start this way?

Ah, but this is a fairy tale about a serious contender, even though he doesn't have a name.

Maybe he works for the CIA. Or maybe he's wanted by the FBI.

Have we found Osama Bin Laden?

In any case, serious contender or not, the story proves nothing about the effectiveness or otherwise of Wing Chun. It's just a "serious contender's" opinion, and without a name his "seriousness" is just panzer's opinion.

[anerlich]

We do both angled round kicks, including the one where you roll the hip over.

That's three people I've seen so far who say WC have everything you need, but have added the low round kick to it. Basically my original point regarding that kick,

[red5angel]

Anerlich said - "I don't agree that practising >1 style will lead you to fight another person's fight. It doesn't follow logically. "

I probably gave the wrong impression there. What I meant was that you are more apt in general to fight a person on thier terms then on yours. This is a generlizartion and with time and effort this can be broken but normally the more aggressive "dancer" is the lead. With multiple styles especially at different ranges, if he wants to fight long range and you know some long range stuff, you may choose to fight him at long range. Now what if while you were putting time and energy into several styles he was putting time and energy into one? My bet is his ability to do what he wants to do is more refined and he is better capable of delivering his payload. This again is a generalization but I think it is a possibility. I of course am taking this from the direction that you are fighting someone with training., Generally, if you have any sort of consistant training, MMA or not, against your average brawler you have the edge.

"No offence, but so are most other arts at a high level. BJJ being one example. In Russian MA in particular, the concept of technique is absent and principle is all. Not saying WC is crap, just that you shouldn't assume that it is automatically so much better than everything else just because. To assume that would IMO be complacent to the point of danger"

Actually I agree. Most arts are not technique based, but more people then not get obsessed with techniques and dont learn to fight what comes. thats why you see so many of the if and or arguments. I do think the Wing chun encourages you to not get so focused on Wing chun but that of course might just be my experience with it so far. Of course I wouldnt assume that other arts arent good, but I study wing chun because it is best for me.

[dezhen2001]

hmmm... i'm confused I don't really see the distinction of 'ranges'. The way i've always seen it you're either at the right distance or you're not. If you're not, then you need to work on how to get there (I need a lot of work on it ). What is one of the reasons chi sau is practised at that certain distance? So you get a natural feel of being in the right space to both attack and defend (?)

Would it not be more constructive to use what you have and apply it against people that use different methods, rather than learn so many things? Why play his game? (something you couldn't know as well as if you had a more concise game of your own?) Of course, i'm no expert, these are just my thoughts at this moment in time...

Also i don't agree with the round kick needing to be added. I trained it in MT and karate as well as shorinji kempo. I agree it's a useful and powerful kick if you do it correctly. Of course i'm nowhere near learning kicking properly yet, but from what i have seen of kicking, WC has all it needs. 'One kick finishes' is a common saying, and used at the right time i can see why

david

[fa_jing]

I value getting exposure to other styles. Not just completing against them, but finding out how they work, and seeing if I can modify my fighting tactics to take advantage of a movement or principle. For instance, I don't want to learn Tai Chi, what I want to learn is how to do Tai Chi with my Wing Chun. I want to learn how to do Hung Gar with my Wing Chun. I want to learn how to kickbox with my Wing Chun. I want to learn how to do Hsing-Yi with my wingchun. What I mean is, use the principles of these arts:

Tai Chi - learn to stick, follow, issue.
Hung Gar - learn to destroy limbs, use hard, tense forearms
Kick Box - deal with the restrictions of rules and gloves.
Hsing-Yi - insight on the vertical fist punch, forward stepping, and power delivery.

Let me see if I can explain myself further. I have a natural feel for Wing Chun after 3 years of training. The hand and arm shapes are automatic. I don't want to learn a whole new set of hand shapes and footwork, I don't see the point. Maybe something here, something there, but I'm not trying to completely change my style of fighting. What I want to do, is find out what other arts are doing, then see if I can produce the same effect out of my Wing Chun framework.

So it is like a progression, that leads back to Wing Chun. Kickboxing is a good example, because it's something I'm learning now. I ask myself, can I slap, can I jerk, can I disperse, can I subdue, can I circle, can I ask, can I cut. The shape might not be exactly the same as the WC forms, but the principle is there, the mind is there. And it works.

I'm going to start working out with a Tai Chi guy, same thing. I want to see what this guy can do, then try to do it myself within my framework and with my tools.

P.S. I do recommend expanding your WC framework with a little bit of grappling. When you add this to your WC, you do it out of your Wing Chun. For instance, to perform an arm-lever, you might tan + punch against an incoming straight punch, to shake up the opponent, then go into your arm lever, or step behind for a rear-naked choke, or whatever. This is how my sifu teaches the grappling.

-FJ

[yuanfen]

That's three people I've seen so far who say WC have everything you need, but have added the low round kick to it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew, I dont know who the 3 are. I think wc conceptually is as through a sytem as far as i can see. My wc has lots of kicks- including a low "round" instep kick. Not really round and not muay thai kick---no real hip involvement. Not karate- no real waist-hip
involvement. Practiced straight out of YGKYM and its moving derivations.
joy

[red5angel]

Dezhen, I agree, I dont really see ranges so much as ways. I do it the wing chun way, some other might do it the muy thai way. Its commone for people to refer to ranges but I think sometimes it confuses the issue.

Fa_Jing - I see what your saying, sort of. I dont think its a bad thing to study an art, just to mix it. Its a grey area because if you know more then one art arent you going to use both in a fight? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldnt anyway. Studying an art to see how you could work it with your wingchun is not a bad thing in my opinion, but often there can be some confusion and you end up down the path of mixed martial arts. Often people say a technique they like and want to use it.

[Dave Farmer]

Hi Red5

Exactly.

I've never tried to 'learn' another art, but spend a lot of time sparring and 'Exchanging methods' with friends from outside WC.

If you've seen it, or felt it you can have a better handle on how to beat it.

I wouldn't try to out kick a Thai boxer or out grapple a grappler.
That is to play his game
Also,as has been stated above, I don't have the time to 'learn' another system and I'm not good enough to stop practicing the one I have.

IMHO cross training isn't a buffet where you pick and choose bits of each system.

Thats why the Gracies are so good at what they do.
They have learned to use what they have to it's maximum potential.

WC works for me and I'm happy with MY progress.

It's all about the individual not the system.

Regards

Dave F

[dezhen2001]

good post Dave... to me thats the difference between training 'with' some people from other systems and adding to your knoweledge of how YOUR skill works, and actually 'crosstraining'.

well, gotta go

david

[fa_jing]

Yes Red5, I don't want to learn another art, just distill other arts and add the principles in. Well, if I could press a button and know some other art, that'd be great, but I'm not going to spend time learning some other forms or anything like that. I'm too busy practicing Wing Chun. Also, obviously I'm not a traditionalists, nor are my goals exactly the same as traditional goals. For instance, I like to participate in low-key sport fighting.


The Round Kick, Thai style - I like it. But what if your in a self-defense situation, and you swing and miss? He moved his leg? Your opponent might step in and attack your back. Or maybe your opponent took the kick, grimaced through the pain, and just kept coming in, and you haven't gotten yoursef off of his line of attack. That's why the kick goes against WC principles, it's overextending yourself. In a sporting situation, it's an acceptable risk, if your in a street-fight against an unskilled opponent, probably still an acceptable risk. Street fight against a skilled opponent - the focus of Wing Chun - not an acceptable risk.
Also, when you restrict kicks to the groin, the round kick becomes a more useful second option. This is a more merciful kick than kicking someone in the groin, and is a good one where you don't really want to hurt the guy.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Just wanted to adjust my statement regarding the round kick, above: Not the best kick to lead with it a self-defense situation against a mobile opponent. However, if you are already engaged and the opening presents itself, a quick round kick with the front leg against the opponent's thigh or midsection can be a good option. As long as you don't rely on this stopping the fight.

-FJ

[Mckind13]

FGX - nice rumor mongering about Sifu Chu... Maybe if you had a name for yourself in the MA world I would make something up for you. If its true tell me the other teachers name, you’re probably his student though and would lose face if someone wrote or called him asking about the story or you :P

Now to the real post at hand...

Wing Chun is a long-range art, a close range art and a mid range art. It is also a short bridge art and that’s where everyone gets confused. Any art can only strike as far as the practitioners’ bridge will reach, and for power, needs to penetrate to hurt the opponent so a certain distance needs to be obtained. Once we have closed the distance we stay there, other arts move in and out and have to traverse these so imaginary ranges every time they move to strike.

I believe Wing Chun contains a circular kick like a roundhouse or Thai, but not the same. It is in some of the circular stepping and knife forms. Its form and function are different because of WC structure and strategy.

The problem with mixing the MA is that there is usually a dichotomy in strategy. For instance, WCK emphasizes moving in, smothering, pressing, capturing, controlling etc. Bjj strategy is to close in and take the opponent to the ground. How do we reconcile these two strategies?

David

WCK closes

[anerlich]

For instance, WCK emphasizes moving in, smothering, pressing, capturing, controlling etc.

That sounds like a BJJ strategy. And WC has methods of downing your opponent (which actually BJJ didn't have much of until they started borrowing takedowns from wrestling, etc.).

Receive what comes, be it an opportunity to hit or to takedown. Reconciliation!