Chen style teacher "Chi does not exist"

[KenGullette]

Hi Guys,
Great debate you have going.
I'm not sure why the debates on my site would be seen as hateful. It is no more hateful to call a chi "master" a fraud if he claims to move people without touching them, than it is to call Pat Robertson a fraud for sitting on his TV show, with eyes closed, talking about a woman in Nebraska whose hemmorrhoids are now healed. I have challenged a couple of people to back up their claims of "chi" powers on me, and they have all declined to do so. They usually get very angry and hurl insults. I am blunt in my replies, but never hateful. If it is arrogant to ask someone to prove their outrageous claims, then I agree that I am arrogant. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong about the frauds.

The purpose of my discussion on this topic is to get people to think more critically. If you believe something is fact, there must be good reason. Most people don't apply solid reasoning to their beliefs about chi. And the myths are perpetuated by magazines, movies and books. Stories of miraculous feats are printed with no corroboration or alternate view. Shoddy journalism is rampant. Those journalists who try to do a balanced job are ridiculed and sometimes beaten.

My Chen teacher is Jim Criscimagna. I do not study with Chen Xiaowang except at seminars, although I do have a private lesson set up for late July. I study with Ren Guangyi at seminars, too. I have the benefit of learning what Chen and Ren teach Jim -- he has the opportunity to study with them more closely and more often, and Jim's students get the benefit of that knowledge. It's a great opportunity.

As for my own skills, I have never, and you won't find it on the website, claimed to be more than I am -- a student. I conduct "classes" because no one else in my area practices these arts, but I make it clear to my students that I'm only just a little ahead of them, and they practice with me as I continue to learn.

I have spent over 2 decades as a journalist and I know that too many people are suckered into believing what people in "authority" positions tell them. Too many people believe something because heck, it's in a book or a magazine. Or my "master" told me it was true, so by Golly it must be true and if you disagree you don't know what you're talking about!! If you don't believe what ancient Chinese guys dreamed up then you have a "closed mind." )

Repulsive Monkey has strong opinions, but little hard data to back him up, and that's the case with everyone involved in supporting ancient, outdated beliefs. Arguing with them is like arguing with a born-again Christian. There's no use.

However, if the questions I'm raising -- even if they sometimes seem a little blunt -- cause a few people to begin looking at this bogus science of "chi" a little more closely, that's okay with me.

In the meantime, I'm more than willing to take on some flames from those who have an emotional and financial investment in seeing that the myth about chi continues.

Chi is a valid concept to use to achieve proper body mechanics for effective internal arts. When Chen Xiaowang says "chi to fingers" I can feel what he's saying, but what I'm actually doing is setting up the proper body structure that will enable me to kick some butt, which is, after all, the purpose of Chen tai chi.

When Chen Xiaowang says, "chi to back," I understand what he is saying. I just don't take it literally.

American tai chi people are considered sissies by most martial artists of other styles. Why is that? Because many tai chi folks have their heads in the sky, thinking of being One with the Universe and feeling their chi flow instead of getting good instruction from good teachers on how to develop proper body mechanics to kick some butt.

If anyone on this discussion board really believes in "empty force", or if you believe that you can heal someone by emitting chi into their bodies, then defend your claim in a rational way with some hard evidence and valid, independent scientific studies. Or convince me through proper reasoning. The problem is this: proper reasoning is hard to come by.

[Liokault]

KenGullette


I fully agree with every thing you said above.

[greendragon]

Ken, if to "kick butt" is your ultimate goal then you are motivated only by fear. Perhaps you should give up MA and buy a gun.

[GLW]

The concept or construct of Qi is not the same thing as saying you believe in Lin Kong Jing or Emitting Qi.

Personally, I don't know if Qi is real in the strict definition. Is there REALLY a life energy in your body that flows in a circulatory system? Don't know. As a conceptual construct, does it provide a framework on which to hang things like Chinese Medicine, Qi Gong, health and longevity...yes..and for that it is valid and useful.

I do not need to know about the exact mechanism of friction in order to use a brake.

But to take a construct like Qi and Jing Luo and extend it to empty force and mystical healing...sorry...prove it in controlled environments.

That goes way beyond my willingness to suspend disbelief.

[Liokault]

Greendragon


I fully disagree with every thing you said above.

[taijiquan_student]

Chen Xiao Wang obviously knows what the **** he's talking about. To tell him, or any one like him "yes I will take your instruction" (whether or not you say that to him or just go to learn because he's your grand-teacher) and then when he tells you the qi goes to the fingers you just think "yeah, I'm gonna kick some ass" is disrespectful, in my opinion. I really am just a beginner, so I'm no ultimate authority, but then again Ken you said you're just a beginner in taiji as well.

"If anyone on this discussion board really believes in "empty force"

I don't think anyone's talking about empty force. In that respect I agree with you Ken. It seems that all those guys are fakes and quacks.

[KenGullette]

Hi Greendragon,
I'm afraid that tai chi was created as a martial art. I've been studying martial arts since 1973. My main purpose is not to "kick butt." I learned how to do that a long time ago. But if you are practicing tai chi and not learning to kick some butt, you aren't practicing tai chi as it was intended to be practiced.

It's perfectly fine to practice for meditation, relaxation, mind-body connection -- I do that, too -- but at its heart, tai chi is a martial art as powerful as any other. Are you saying Chen Wangting was driven to create tai chi by fear? He had retired as a warrior when he created the art. It was certainly a martial art when it was passed down from generation to generation in the Chen village.

I say "kick butt" with tongue firmly in cheek. I haven't been in a "real" fight since high school and have no intention of getting into one. But it's fun to learn how, isn't it?

The problem with tai chi in America is that the meditative and mystical version of tai chi was introduced and now is taught by people across the U.S. who have no idea how to use tai chi for fighting. They spend all their time trying to pretend that chi is going to turn them into super beings through development of "chi." As a result, a lot of Americans, in my opinion, are passing along bad quality.

A great tai chi class involves a considerable amount of physical pain. Attend one of Chen Xiaowang or Ren Guangyi's seminars and you'll see what I'm saying. At the end of our classes in Rockford, Illinois, many of us are drenched in sweat and our legs quivering. Growing up in the Chen village, Chen Xiaowang says he collapsed every day during training. These guys are really good because they are like Olympic athletes compared with us Americans. They've trained all their lives. They didn't get this way because of "chi." If you get my point.

Now, let me ask you: are my comments "hateful?" Some people take it that way because I am challenging their beliefs. Nothing is intended as hateful, but as a reality check for people like I used to be -- clouded by the crap that unqualified people were giving me because they wanted people to think that if chi exists, that means THEY might have great powers, too!! Get it?? If I make you think chi is real, that makes me appear mysterious, mystical and powerful. It's a human disease. Human nature.

[KenGullette]

I will add that my beliefs are my own. They are not necessarily shared by any of my teachers.

I've never heard either Chen Xiaowang or Ren Guangyi talk about miraculous chi powers. In fact, in one seminar I attended, Chen Xiaowang said Iron Shirt Chi Kung is not good for fighting. "Only demonstration," he said.

Chen Xiaowang also says you don't have to believe in chi to do good tai chi.

But the Chinese grew up in a culture of chi. I interpret it in a modern, educated American way. It doesn't bother me at all when I am told to move my chi to dan t'ien, then to back, then to fingers. I know what they mean, and it boils down to good body mechanics and posture. That's my interpretation. And I believe it is correct.

Good tai chi is a physical skill, requiring physical practice. Now I'm signing off for the evening. I have to practice Liao Jia Yi Lu and standing stake.

[KenGullette]

You misinterpreted my comments. Please have the flexibility of mind to understand tongue-in-cheek when you read it. The problem with emails and discussion boards is that you can't hear the inflection and tone of voice.

Believe me, Chen Xiaowang and Ren Guangyi can flat out kick some butt. Did you hear about the kickboxer that went to a Chen Xiaowang seminar? An eyewitness told me that during an application demo, the kickboxer sort of challenged Chen Xiaowang by asking, "So what do you do against multiple attacks?"

Chen Xiaowang replied, "Well, go ahead and throw multiple attacks."

Before the kickboxer's first technique was completed, he was on the floor in considerable pain.

Kicking butt is at the heart of tai chi. Many Americans have completely missed this point, because they have been taught by unqualified people, or by people who just aren't "into" fighting. That's okay (to not be into fighting) but real tai chi is a martial art.

But that isn't what I'm thinking about when I am told, in class, to put chi to fingers. I'm thinking about trying to find the correct posture. I'm trying to center my stance, relax, establish ground path and peng.

If I can learn that well enough, THEN I'll worry about kicking some butt.

We're all just beginners compared with these guys. We'll never be that good. It's a great pursuit. It's fun. And fun is one of the reasons we all got into martial arts, isn't it?

[taijiquan_student]

That's cool. Of course I totally agree about the martial aspect. I also remember hearing about a guy that went to attack CXW from behind and he ended up getting an elbow right into the chest/heart-area. I think he had to go see a doctor right on the spot.
It's a shame that so few people practice the martial aspect seriously. Yes, "kicking butt" is at the heart of tai chi, as I learn by way of getting smacked around by my teacher and the senior students every saturday morning in san shou.
I guess it's pretty easy to misunderstand people's comments over the net.
I may not agree with everything you say, but it doesn't matter. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

[Liokault]

Sadly the art of tai chi as a martial art is being forgotten at an amazing rate.

The really scarey thing is that the guys who have never practiced tai chi as a martial art belive that they have the whole art as it has always been.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Lets begin with some simple principles.. science (particle physics) tells us that everything is energy, expressed in so many ways.. that each time science has "found a particle of mass", it has subsequently been broken down to smaller parts and energy is released.. this cycle will continue until we realize that everything is simply energy behaving in specific patterns.. so, its all just energy.. Chi is simply one culture's understanding of "Energy".. that culture has learned how to utilize this energy (Chi) to both help and hurt (Tai Chi & QiGong).. If you so choose, do the research and learn about the "Heisenberg Experiments", where it has been proven that the observer has a direct effect on the outcome of controlled experiments where energy responds to the expectations of the participants.. in short, consciousness can control the way energy (Chi) behaves.. its science, its proven..

Those that would discount "Chi" as quackery are perfect examples of the "Heisenberg Experiments", their expectations are manifested in their realities.. They have successfully confined their experience of life to the illusion that life is some bio-mechanical function.. when, in fact, their bio-mechanical function is the result of a grand orchestration of consciousness and energy.. they are not right, they are not wrong, they are simply self-imposing a limitation that is unnecessary.. but, it suits their concept of "self"..

Modern science fully supports the concept of "Chi", it simply calls it "energy".. we are what we choose to be.. some choose the full experience, some choose a limited experience.. nothing worth arguing over, its just personal preference..

Now, the "kick-butt" mentallity, is from the school of thought that limits its concept of self to the tangible forms of energy (flesh and mass).. To assert that kicking butt is at the heart of Tai Chi is a sad expression of one's understanding of the Art.. Tai Chi is based on the interaction of Pos/neg energy (Yin/Yang).. the balance is derived from its opposites.. hurt/heal.. the heart of Tai Chi is understanding and awareness.. it is practiced through discipline and open-mided research..

Folly and arrogance are evident whenever one confines the infinite and eternal universe to the limits of their own perceptions..

Just another perspective from the far-side.. be well..

[Repulsive Monkey]

Interesting offensive you put up but Chen Wang Ting didn't create Taiji, just read the Taiji classics to fathom that one out.

I can see by what you have said that Chen Xiao Wang has only taken you so far, so why is it that whe he has told me to extend the qi beyond the body, why has he emitted qi into my body, and proved to me that external qi projection is a valid reason for practicisng Taiji, why is it he said to our class that physical fighting in Taiji is merely one quarter of whole Taiji?

Strange that he says these things or maybe its just that some people chose to hear these things?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Im sorry but if the zenith of your aspirations is to be thet "Taiji is kicking butt" then trully are a poor teacher.

[KenGullette]

Ahhh, someone who disagrees with my point of view calls me a "small minded twit" and other names.

In an earlier post on this board, someone (I believe Brad?) said that he thought the posts on my discussion board were hateful.

Daniel's post is the reason Internet chats devolve into hate-filled ranting and raving. Because people who can't express their ideas rationally, using solid evidence or reasoning skills to back up their claims, resort to terms like "small-minded twit."

When Richard Mooney claimed he could knock people down with his chi, without touching them, I sent him a polite email, telling him I didn't believe he could do it and asked if he would do it to me if I came to Texas. His reply was filled with sarcasm and he quickly began ignoring me. His believers began pelting me with profane emails and posts. The intelligence of some of these guys makes you wonder if they ever attended school one day in their lives.

No valid scientific study has ever shown that chi exists. No valid, double-blind study has shown that you can control outcomes with your mind. If that were the case, people would be able to win regularly at the craps and roulette tables.

Many chi frauds are out there, claiming they can heal people with chi. No study has ever shown that this works beyond any effect that would be expected of a placebo.

Richard Mooney's double-blind study failed miserably. He could not reproduce the powers he claimed to possess.

There are many people, brainwashed by what they've been told and read, desperate to believe that they can harness the miraculous powers of chi and become "somebody," that they refuse to apply reason and critical thinking skills to the issue. Their only recourse is to call people "small minded twits." It's all they can come up with.